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[Es] Over the last two decades of working,
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one of the things I've discovered
is often things are made to fill voids.
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[light switch echoes]
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[Es] The impetus to fill that hole
with art, to me, is fundamental.
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[other-worldly music playing]
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[Es] My canvas tends to be
devoid of light.
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You sort of do need to start
without light to find it.
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[other-worldly music continues]
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[director] Here's my first question,
and I've been curious about this.
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Do you pronounce your name
"Ezz" or "Ess"?
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I pronounce my name "Ezz,"
because my name is short for Esmeralda.
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Often it's perceived
as being a man's name,
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so I do get reviews in Germany, which say,
"Herr Devlin's incredibly masculine work
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would have benefited from reading
the feminine aspects of the text."
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So, it's a useful,
neutral little name, actually, Es.
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I find it quite handy.
It's serving me quite well as a name.
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Every project starts exactly like this.
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Blank piece of paper, blank table,
there's usually one other person there.
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Could be a director, or a playwright,
or the artist, if it's for a pop show.
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And a conversation happens,
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and I'd normally just start drawing
while we're talking.
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So, if I were to be having a conversation
about my own practice,
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it would start with this one,
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with a little drawing
of a pair of scissors on it.
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'Cause you used to get those,
and you still do,
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on the back of a cornflakes packet,
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and it's an invitation to take
the piece of the cornflakes packet
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and cut it and make an intervention in it
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and change it
and turn it into something else.
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Like that, that will do.
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And then you hold it up to the light
and you go,
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"Oh, there's light
just coming through that bit that I cut!"
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So I like that one.
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I often get asked by people,
"How did you start doing what you do?"
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I often get asked by young,
like, 17-year-old people,
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who don't know what to do.
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And I always feel very empathetic
towards those 17-year-old people
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who say, "I don't know what to do."
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I was no different to that,
I didn't know what to do at all.
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But then I did a course in theater design
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and I found myself in this room full
of people making model stuff.
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I thought, "This is good,
these people are feral,
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and they stay up all night making models,
I feel quite at home here."
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So, I did that.
I just made stuff for a year in this thing
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and then at the end of it,
I won this prize.
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One of the first major shows
I was asked to do
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was the Harold Pinter play, Betrayal.
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Big piece at the National Theatre
in London, so I threw everything at it.
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And it says it's set in a bedroom,
a living room, a hotel room in Venice,
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and what I did is I overlaid
the ground plans of every scene
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with projections.
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And at that time, it was quite unusual
to use projection and film in theater.
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There wasn't really
an infrastructure for it to work.
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And the point about that particular play
is it really doesn't need any of that.
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It does not need it.
It's a very happy play in a white box
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with a few white curtain changes
and furniture, it's happy that way.
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But that was me, I was doing my thing
and Harold Pinter was very sweet about it.
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'Cause he was quite excited
to see all this gadgetry,
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and, as a joke, he, on the first night,
introduced me to Antonia Fraser,
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his wife, Lady Antonia Fraser,
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and said, "This is Es,
she wrote the play."
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So that was sweet.
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[futuristic music playing]
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The beginnings of my practice
were making small theater.
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You know, literally, there's an audience
of 78 at the Bush Theatre,
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which was where I first started working.
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[Bradwell] The Bush Theatre
is about the size of a matchbox.
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What it was, was close-up magic.
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We created worlds
in a very, very tiny space.
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How do you build a revolve
in a theater that seats 80 people?
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How do you do projections,
television screens?
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People were spending
a lot of money doing that.
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We were spending
about four quid doing it out of junk
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and Es was working out how to do it,
every single step of the way.
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She'd paint the set,
she'd make the stuff, she'd weld.
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[Es] I began to find what I wanted
to say quite quickly
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and quite quickly,
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people who didn't like the kinds of things
I was doing stopped asking.
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My practice has been following
my own paths of inquiry.
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And in order to practice,
I have found willing collaborators
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who I've been able to align my paths
of inquiry with.
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From pop stars like Beyoncé,
through to Wagner operas.
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The interesting thing about the process...
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I've learned that I don't actually
make anything or know what to make,
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until I know what the space is
that it's going to inhabit.
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'Cause as soon as you have a frame,
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of course the first thing you want to do
is start breaking out the edge of it.
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The Faith Healer is a series of monologues
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through rain, through sludge,
through bleakness.
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The interstitial gaps
between each monologue
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needed to evoke that itinerant bleakness.
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The rain fulfilled that need,
but also fulfilled a more practical need:
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we are in a theater
that does not have wings,
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does not have a fly tower.
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How do we change the scenery?
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We are using our rain box
like a curtain, practically.
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From the actors' point of view,
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they enjoy the way that they are
revealed and concealed
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at the beginning and the end
of each of their monologues.
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This is a theater which has a brick wall
right behind what you see there,
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and the audience who come to this space
know that brick wall intimately,
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they're used to being confronted
with shallow space.
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So to give them depth
and an element that is real.
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You can feel the audience feeling
the emotional response that anybody has
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towards lit rain in a small, dark room.
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And I'm satisfied.
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By the way,
I have no idea how the rain system works.
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It just shows
that you can design nice things
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without having a clue
how they fucking work.
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Es is somebody who absolutely
amazes me every time we work.
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I come back excited from meetings,
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because she's always coming up
with information I would've never known
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or discovered by any other means.
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A new stimulus every time,
many in a meeting.
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[Es] Normally, throughout the process
there will be a number of meetings.
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There might be five or there might be 25.
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And it might take a year
or three years or three months.
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I will have my team make models.
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I will draw the kind of models
I think it's going to be,
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and then when I come back,
we've got a whole bunch of options.
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Sometimes they're interesting.
Sometimes they're less interesting.
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We have another meeting,
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we say, "We think it could be this,
it could be that..."
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So you need to turn up with everything.
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[upbeat music playing]
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[Es] This is actually probably
the most recent, and it's a rejected idea.
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He was drawn in Paris
in Karl Lagerfeld's studio,
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while Kanye West and Kim Kardashian
were being photographed on a bed.
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And I sat at the end of the bed
drawing ideas that Kanye was having
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and one of them was a man
made out of LED,
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and this posture is the result
of many, many sketches.
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Because at first, he looked too strong,
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then he didn't look
sufficiently vulnerable.
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so we got to a sketch that he loved
on that day
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and we made this model.
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And then we took it to Los Angeles
and it was hated instantly,
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so it came home in shame.
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And it's hanging its head in shame
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with a little parrot-headed man on it
to cheer it up.
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[laughs]
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-[Es] You have that...
-Mm-hmm.
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-[Es] I want a little doorway.
-Just flat?
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-Blank.
-Flush.
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-A flush door.
-Mm-hmm.
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[Es] And it can open.
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I was invited to make a piece
for the Belgian Triennale Exhibition.
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It's an exhibition about
the relationship between music and art.
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A visual embodiment of music.
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And that's why I was invited to take part,
because of the work I've done in music.
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You know what you could do?
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You could put the gauze there
and then have just a torn out area.
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So, I think that's quite elegant,
if you just stretch it.
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Yeah, I think that
would look really smart.
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I immediately wanted to make
a cube that would revolve,
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that would have different apertures
on different sides,
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projecting images of some
of the shows I've made over 20 years.
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I'll tell you
what my mind's going through:
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is whether it's interesting
to see the mess inside,
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or whether you want to keep it mysterious,
you know. That's the--
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That's the point.
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-Ta-da!
-Okay.
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[laughs] I love that, I'm going to come
around here more often. It's done!
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There's an element
of anxiety about it all.
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There's an element of terror,
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because Kanye is not going to be there,
Beyoncé is not going to be there.
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I've got to make something
that is worth watching on its own,
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which I haven't really made before,
so we'll see.
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It might or might not be worth watching.
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[doorbell rings]
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-[intercom] Hello?
-[Es] Hello!
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[door buzzes]
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[Tim] I would never have been seen dead
at a pop concert,
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and I'd never would have gone to one
but for Es.
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Well, he can speak for himself.
I would've been to lots.
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But I think it's the spectacle.
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[Tim] All those lights that come up,
people taking pictures
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and the deafening noise and everything,
I've actually quite taken to it.
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This was a lovely Christmas present
Es gave us last year,
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and it's offcuts from a big set she did
in Dresden, and it's Der Freischütz.
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Another nice thing is we get to see
a lot of the stuff she does,
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so we're camp followers.
We are roadies, really. We go around.
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And it's wonderful, because all sorts
of places we'd never would've been.
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[Angela] By the way, my husband,
you may not know this...
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Es's dad is a great crocheter.
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-[Tim] That's my speciality--
-[Angela] He makes tea cozies--
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-[Tim] I also made the table.
-[Angela] He made this table.
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-My husband made this table.
-This is out of scaffolding planks.
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Yep. Old scaffolding boards.
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I mean, 90% of the stuff in this house
is from junk shops
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and we just painted them or made them.
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[Tim] Yeah.
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[Angela] So I think Es has done
exactly the same thing,
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but we never really thought she'd go
into anything connected with art.
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Music was her thing.
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[Es] My way of escaping or adventuring
away from the countryside
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was through music.
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'Cause I would go up to London
on the train, age 11, on my own,
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and I had music lessons in London
at the Royal Academy,
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and then when I finished my music lessons,
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I would then have
the rest of the day in London,
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rocking about with my travel card.
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[violin music playing]
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[Es] So music kind of was an entry point
into another tribe.
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And I have always enjoyed, since then,
being amongst the tribe of musicians.
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I thought that bands, you see,
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00:14:10,475 --> 00:14:12,977
'cause I had been going out
with a record producer,
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and we went to see lots of shows,
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and I always thought they were
visually desperately boring.
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Probably because I went to the wrong ones.
I didn't go to the fascinating ones.
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But they looked like this.
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00:14:21,861 --> 00:14:24,530
People playing guitars here, guitars here,
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you might have had keyboards here,
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00:14:26,157 --> 00:14:30,661
and then you sometimes had
a curtain or the band's name up here,
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00:14:30,745 --> 00:14:33,456
or, if you were really lucky,
you might have had some projection.
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00:14:33,539 --> 00:14:37,251
But that was pretty much
everything I saw in bands.
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00:14:37,335 --> 00:14:39,295
And I didn't like this shape,
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00:14:40,046 --> 00:14:42,715
'cause I thought it was
a humpbacked band shape.
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00:14:42,799 --> 00:14:44,509
I was used to looking at opera
and theater,
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00:14:44,592 --> 00:14:46,427
and I thought that was a mess.
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00:14:46,511 --> 00:14:51,724
And I didn't like these lights up here
that just did "ri-ra-ra-ra" lighty things.
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I didn't like it.
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00:14:53,518 --> 00:14:55,561
So, the first time I did a rock show,
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I said, "Why don't we put
them all in their own little box?"
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You can go in here, Mr. Drummer.
You can go in here, Mr. Guitarist.
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00:15:03,194 --> 00:15:04,529
The singer can go in here...
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[rock music playing]
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[Es] I put a gauze on the front,
like this, which is a kind of netting,
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00:15:14,997 --> 00:15:17,542
and I put a mirror all over the sides.
229
00:15:17,625 --> 00:15:20,420
A very cheap, crap mirror
'cause I didn't have much money.
230
00:15:20,878 --> 00:15:25,258
And my idea was to sort of deconstruct
the anatomy of this four-piece band.
231
00:15:25,341 --> 00:15:29,679
So you just saw the vocalist's mouth,
the drummer's nose,
232
00:15:29,762 --> 00:15:33,766
the guitarist's eye
and the bass player's ear.
233
00:15:34,475 --> 00:15:36,853
But, in my excitement,
234
00:15:36,936 --> 00:15:40,022
I neglected to remember
that this was their farewell gig
235
00:15:40,106 --> 00:15:42,358
and they would need to take a bow
236
00:15:42,442 --> 00:15:44,986
and step out and be seen
by their adoring fans.
237
00:15:45,069 --> 00:15:46,737
[applause]
238
00:15:46,821 --> 00:15:49,824
So, I just stapled this front gauze on
and also, once they're in,
239
00:15:49,907 --> 00:15:53,953
I stapled the rear projection screen on,
so they actually couldn't get out.
240
00:15:55,997 --> 00:15:58,458
People tell me I should
watch a film called Spinal Tap,
241
00:15:58,541 --> 00:15:59,459
but I've never seen it
242
00:15:59,542 --> 00:16:01,419
and I don't intend to
at this point in my life,
243
00:16:01,502 --> 00:16:03,337
because everyone says
my life is too similar to it.
244
00:16:03,421 --> 00:16:05,298
So I'm never watching that film. Sorry.
245
00:16:06,674 --> 00:16:08,926
And this is what Kanye saw
246
00:16:09,010 --> 00:16:11,804
when he was in the middle
of sacking his set designer,
247
00:16:11,888 --> 00:16:14,182
and my friend heard him
sacking his set designer
248
00:16:14,265 --> 00:16:16,684
and said,
"Look at this. She's just done this."
249
00:16:17,018 --> 00:16:20,021
And Kanye said, "Oh goody, goody!
I'll have one of those."
250
00:16:20,104 --> 00:16:21,564
So that's how it all started.
251
00:16:22,356 --> 00:16:24,442
[heavy bass playing]
252
00:16:24,525 --> 00:16:26,986
[Es] What can this artifice
bring on that's true?
253
00:16:27,778 --> 00:16:30,031
What are you going to make
the audience feel?
254
00:16:31,073 --> 00:16:35,786
How can something pretend,
initiate, or generate anything true?
255
00:16:39,165 --> 00:16:44,921
I have been given the opportunity to spend
sometimes millions of an artist's money
256
00:16:45,004 --> 00:16:47,840
on, effectively, a sculpture
that they have commissioned,
257
00:16:47,924 --> 00:16:49,759
like Take That's giant man.
258
00:16:51,761 --> 00:16:54,847
The question of "Why?" endures throughout.
259
00:16:56,766 --> 00:17:00,561
Why did we want that slice of light
through the middle of Beyoncé's cube?
260
00:17:01,062 --> 00:17:03,814
Why did we want that circle of light
around the Pet Shop Boys?
261
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:09,612
Why did we want that block of light
in the middle of the arena for U2's tour?
262
00:17:09,695 --> 00:17:11,155
In fact the U2 show,
263
00:17:11,239 --> 00:17:14,575
the whole conversation we had
was a journey from a square to a circle.
264
00:17:15,451 --> 00:17:20,164
From the home, to the world,
and that stage ended up actually being
265
00:17:20,248 --> 00:17:22,667
a journey from a square stage
to a circular stage.
266
00:17:24,877 --> 00:17:29,006
What I tend to be most interested in
is the psychology of a space.
267
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:35,304
A lot of my work now
is about finding environments for music.
268
00:17:38,683 --> 00:17:40,935
And there's a lot more freedom,
I would say,
269
00:17:41,018 --> 00:17:43,354
because many lyrics are already poetry.
270
00:17:43,437 --> 00:17:46,941
So I guess I'm designing for poetry
to happen in, more often than prose.
271
00:17:48,734 --> 00:17:52,905
I really quite methodically go,
"Okay, let's listen to the lyrics,
272
00:17:52,989 --> 00:17:55,658
let's write down the lyrics
that we respond to,
273
00:17:55,741 --> 00:17:58,619
let's try and find a poetry,
let's try and find a story."
274
00:17:58,703 --> 00:18:03,916
And each time an actor or a singer
sings or says a word...
275
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,711
♪ Blossom's fallin' from a tree ♪
276
00:18:06,794 --> 00:18:07,712
that's another question:
277
00:18:07,795 --> 00:18:09,797
what should be around them
while they're saying this?
278
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,634
What would support or counterpoint
what they're doing?
279
00:18:14,218 --> 00:18:17,179
So, it's really complex,
there are a lot of parts to it.
280
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,265
[futuristic music playing]
281
00:18:23,352 --> 00:18:25,354
In spaces where I make things,
282
00:18:25,438 --> 00:18:30,359
I can find light and scratch out light
and shape things to allow light in.
283
00:18:31,611 --> 00:18:32,903
Like the U2 show.
284
00:18:35,406 --> 00:18:39,493
We found magic tricks
that work best to control light.
285
00:18:41,996 --> 00:18:43,623
For example, a mirror.
286
00:18:46,250 --> 00:18:51,964
The first time I used a piece of mirror
would've been Macbeth,
287
00:18:52,048 --> 00:18:54,216
where we sliced a box in half with mirror
288
00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:56,427
and we were able to see
one half of this table,
289
00:18:56,510 --> 00:19:00,097
with and without the ghost of Banquo
as it revolved.
290
00:19:00,681 --> 00:19:02,933
And it behaved as his psychological space,
291
00:19:03,017 --> 00:19:07,104
as a metaphor for the tricks
that were being played on him.
292
00:19:09,565 --> 00:19:12,693
And then recently I used a mirror
on a piece called The Nether,
293
00:19:13,486 --> 00:19:18,366
which was about a world created digitally.
294
00:19:18,449 --> 00:19:22,912
So I somehow needed to make the audience
not trust their environment.
295
00:19:22,995 --> 00:19:25,831
So what was interesting is people
who came out of that play
296
00:19:25,915 --> 00:19:29,752
described having seen a glass box,
but actually, there was no box.
297
00:19:29,835 --> 00:19:31,629
There was nothing there,
298
00:19:31,712 --> 00:19:36,842
it was just objects placed in space
with a mirror set quite far behind them,
299
00:19:36,926 --> 00:19:40,221
so the audience's depth perception
was really messed about with
300
00:19:40,304 --> 00:19:42,014
so they thought they were reading a box
301
00:19:42,098 --> 00:19:45,518
and they were just reading objects
in relation to an invisible box.
302
00:19:46,602 --> 00:19:51,357
And I use mirror a lot in the fashion
shows I've been doing with Louis Vuitton.
303
00:19:53,484 --> 00:19:56,946
This is a new discovery
of a transparent, two-way mirror
304
00:19:57,446 --> 00:20:00,574
that is mirror whenever
there is not light behind it.
305
00:20:01,409 --> 00:20:04,995
So, if you put a piece of LED screen
behind a piece of two-way mirror,
306
00:20:05,079 --> 00:20:09,834
then if you conjure a face
against black behind mirror,
307
00:20:09,917 --> 00:20:14,255
then the mirror will reflect the room
everywhere except where the face is,
308
00:20:14,338 --> 00:20:19,552
so you effectively see a suspended face
amidst a huge double sized room.
309
00:20:21,262 --> 00:20:23,222
I'm making more immersive pieces
310
00:20:23,305 --> 00:20:25,891
that an audience can wander around
and find themselves in.
311
00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:32,356
Just recently, I was invited
to create anything I wanted
312
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,900
for this Chanel project.
313
00:20:35,401 --> 00:20:37,737
As long as it was about scent,
it could be anything.
314
00:20:45,286 --> 00:20:47,455
I came up with a mirrored maze,
315
00:20:48,539 --> 00:20:50,958
and it seemed to me that
that was a good analog
316
00:20:51,041 --> 00:20:55,004
for the frontal brain making
50,000 decisions a minute.
317
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,511
And then suddenly allow them
into a room where the floor falls away
318
00:21:02,595 --> 00:21:03,721
and they plummet.
319
00:21:03,804 --> 00:21:08,476
Then you'd be creating
a sculptural physical analog
320
00:21:08,893 --> 00:21:13,439
for how it feels to be
plummeted back in time to a memory,
321
00:21:13,522 --> 00:21:16,942
in the way that you do when you
suddenly smell your mother's perfume.
322
00:21:20,488 --> 00:21:22,490
[piano music playing]
323
00:21:38,672 --> 00:21:40,508
[Es] I used to come to this church
324
00:21:40,591 --> 00:21:43,302
and the extraordinary thing
about this church
325
00:21:43,385 --> 00:21:47,139
is it's a very small, little parish.
326
00:21:49,558 --> 00:21:53,145
And yet, there are
11 stained glass windows here,
327
00:21:53,229 --> 00:21:55,564
which were designed by Marc Chagall.
328
00:21:56,398 --> 00:21:58,317
Which is an extraordinary thing, I think.
329
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,486
[piano playing continues]
330
00:22:08,702 --> 00:22:11,247
[Es] A local member of the parish council,
331
00:22:11,330 --> 00:22:16,460
his daughter died in a sailing accident
tragically in 1963.
332
00:22:16,544 --> 00:22:17,586
She was 21.
333
00:22:20,172 --> 00:22:24,802
In memory of her,
he commissioned these windows.
334
00:22:24,885 --> 00:22:29,348
When Chagall came here
and saw this window in situ,
335
00:22:29,431 --> 00:22:32,977
he said, "Okay, I need to do
the whole church."
336
00:22:33,060 --> 00:22:39,233
So over the next ten years, he created
the rest of the windows, one by one.
337
00:22:39,733 --> 00:22:41,860
[piano playing continues]
338
00:22:45,030 --> 00:22:48,325
There was a big Chagall exhibition
in the early '80s,
339
00:22:48,409 --> 00:22:52,913
and it would've been around that time
I would've seen all of Chagall's work...
340
00:22:53,872 --> 00:22:56,500
and also joined it together
with seeing these windows.
341
00:22:57,167 --> 00:23:01,881
So this feels like
paint turned into light.
342
00:23:02,715 --> 00:23:06,927
The intensity of that cobalt
and ultramarine and cyan,
343
00:23:07,011 --> 00:23:10,180
all those different blues
that are going on together in that,
344
00:23:10,264 --> 00:23:13,601
is something that I would've seen in paint
and then I would've come here
345
00:23:13,684 --> 00:23:16,729
and realized what happens
when you pour light through it
346
00:23:16,812 --> 00:23:20,024
and look at the refractions
that are coming off it on the wall there.
347
00:23:20,107 --> 00:23:22,234
And the fact that this guy...
There's his name.
348
00:23:22,818 --> 00:23:23,944
You know, he was here.
349
00:23:24,570 --> 00:23:28,365
It reminds you that artists all have to
come from somewhere, however small.
350
00:23:29,325 --> 00:23:30,367
[birdsong]
351
00:23:30,451 --> 00:23:33,954
What strikes me about these windows is,
from the inside,
352
00:23:34,038 --> 00:23:35,748
they are this glorious,
353
00:23:35,831 --> 00:23:41,045
jewel-like emanating source
of colored light.
354
00:23:41,128 --> 00:23:42,921
But look at them here, they're black.
355
00:23:43,005 --> 00:23:45,883
It's waiting to be brought to life.
356
00:23:45,966 --> 00:23:48,093
It's how I feel
at the beginning of a show,
357
00:23:48,177 --> 00:23:50,721
before the lights come up
on a piece of scenery.
358
00:23:53,098 --> 00:23:57,895
The turning of the lights out
at the start of a performance
359
00:23:57,978 --> 00:24:00,606
is a really special thing, isn't it?
360
00:24:00,689 --> 00:24:02,816
When you sit with a group of people
in the dark.
361
00:24:02,900 --> 00:24:05,069
'Cause it's not something
we habitually do.
362
00:24:06,487 --> 00:24:08,656
And I think that goes back
to earliest childhood,
363
00:24:08,739 --> 00:24:10,449
the lights being turned out.
364
00:24:10,532 --> 00:24:12,868
You know, if you think about sleepovers...
365
00:24:12,951 --> 00:24:17,039
A group of children awake in the dark,
being an entry point into something.
366
00:24:17,122 --> 00:24:20,000
And I think that sort of
does get rerehearsed.
367
00:24:22,419 --> 00:24:24,713
There's 80,000 people
and the sun goes down.
368
00:24:25,422 --> 00:24:27,383
That's the same as
what happened at Stonehenge,
369
00:24:27,466 --> 00:24:30,010
before there were any Christians here,
but there were druids.
370
00:24:32,012 --> 00:24:35,641
Something happens at that point
in the show, because there's a change.
371
00:24:38,102 --> 00:24:42,439
They have all come to focus
their gaze on one person.
372
00:24:43,565 --> 00:24:45,150
We don't need to say worship,
373
00:24:45,234 --> 00:24:51,240
but all the energy of the room
is focused on that one little individual,
374
00:24:51,323 --> 00:24:55,202
and that in itself is an extraordinary,
physiological event.
375
00:24:55,285 --> 00:24:58,455
Eighty thousand humans are all looking
at one other little human.
376
00:24:58,539 --> 00:24:59,748
[electricity crackles]
377
00:24:59,832 --> 00:25:00,874
[crowd roaring]
378
00:25:03,794 --> 00:25:05,879
[heavy bass plays]
379
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,677
[Es] I worked with Beyoncé
on the Formation tour,
380
00:25:12,302 --> 00:25:15,848
and we came up with a thing that's not
terribly dissimilar to this in some ways.
381
00:25:15,931 --> 00:25:22,146
It's a cuboid, but it does open
with this slit, this aperture of light.
382
00:25:23,063 --> 00:25:27,443
When she was a child,
she spoke to a TV preacher
383
00:25:28,026 --> 00:25:31,739
and the preacher said to her,
"Put your hand on the TV,"
384
00:25:32,489 --> 00:25:35,743
and she felt the sensation of prayer.
385
00:25:36,368 --> 00:25:39,621
I think it was the combination
in a child's mind of what a TV does
386
00:25:39,705 --> 00:25:45,419
and what the language
and tone of prayer feels like.
387
00:25:46,295 --> 00:25:52,009
And later she realized
this big revolving block of her
388
00:25:52,092 --> 00:25:55,012
is another way of broadcasting
her and what she's saying.
389
00:25:57,765 --> 00:26:02,519
If you look at most concerts before 2003,
390
00:26:03,395 --> 00:26:07,149
most of the photos were done by
professional photographers near the front
391
00:26:07,232 --> 00:26:09,526
and you'll see a big god-like image
of the pop star
392
00:26:09,610 --> 00:26:11,070
and a load of lights behind.
393
00:26:11,612 --> 00:26:13,238
And that's how the imagery was recorded
394
00:26:13,322 --> 00:26:16,992
and that's how most people who didn't go
would perceive the show.
395
00:26:17,075 --> 00:26:21,038
So cut to cameras on phones...
396
00:26:21,121 --> 00:26:27,628
Suddenly that event is being recorded
from every angle
397
00:26:28,212 --> 00:26:30,839
and therefore my work
is suddenly being seen from every angle
398
00:26:30,923 --> 00:26:32,800
and being understood in a different way.
399
00:26:32,883 --> 00:26:34,051
So it's a big shift.
400
00:26:35,928 --> 00:26:41,225
The artists I'm working with are bombarded
with images of themselves and their show.
401
00:26:41,308 --> 00:26:43,727
They know their show
like they never knew it.
402
00:26:44,353 --> 00:26:48,023
They're aware that how many people
will perceive this show
403
00:26:48,106 --> 00:26:49,942
will be via those media,
404
00:26:50,025 --> 00:26:54,029
so, to a degree, we're designing
to a square at the moment.
405
00:26:56,365 --> 00:26:59,117
That will probably change. Instagram
might suddenly become a triangle.
406
00:27:03,038 --> 00:27:04,039
The more I practice
407
00:27:04,122 --> 00:27:07,626
and the more I begin to be
more self-reflective in the practice,
408
00:27:07,709 --> 00:27:09,962
which is happening now, really,
409
00:27:10,754 --> 00:27:13,549
then I begin to ask: why do I need
to engage with these people?
410
00:27:13,632 --> 00:27:16,552
What relevance is this work to me?
411
00:27:16,635 --> 00:27:19,137
Why do I need to...
What can I bring to it?
412
00:27:22,182 --> 00:27:23,475
It's interesting, isn't it,
413
00:27:23,559 --> 00:27:27,521
because the word "show" suggests
that you're revealing something.
414
00:27:28,856 --> 00:27:30,732
It doesn't suggest finding.
415
00:27:34,278 --> 00:27:35,320
What would be nice...
416
00:27:35,404 --> 00:27:37,489
And because I do what I do every day,
417
00:27:37,573 --> 00:27:42,411
I have to make sure the showing of things
is in itself the seeking for things.
418
00:27:42,911 --> 00:27:45,038
-Make it a little bit more punchy.
-OK.
419
00:27:46,039 --> 00:27:47,374
[Es] Yay! Oh yes!
420
00:27:48,250 --> 00:27:49,251
What would you have to show
421
00:27:49,334 --> 00:27:51,545
if you hadn't been looking
and finding and seeking?
422
00:27:51,628 --> 00:27:54,464
This is going on a truck tomorrow night,
going to Belgium.
423
00:27:55,632 --> 00:28:00,804
So I looked at some footage of babies
playing with those sorting boxes,
424
00:28:00,888 --> 00:28:05,183
where you pick up a triangle,
you pick up a circle, you pick up a square
425
00:28:05,267 --> 00:28:08,186
and you try to slot it through
different apertures in the box.
426
00:28:09,146 --> 00:28:10,981
It's actually
extraordinary footage to watch,
427
00:28:11,064 --> 00:28:14,484
because what's happening in their brain
is every time they discover something new,
428
00:28:14,568 --> 00:28:16,194
they're getting a little dopamine rush,
429
00:28:16,278 --> 00:28:19,865
which is why we're biologically selected
to be in love with new things.
430
00:28:21,575 --> 00:28:22,826
This baby literally,
431
00:28:22,910 --> 00:28:25,829
either when it does go through
or when it doesn't go through,
432
00:28:25,913 --> 00:28:28,415
either of those instances
is a new sensation,
433
00:28:28,498 --> 00:28:30,000
and it gets a little reward.
434
00:28:30,918 --> 00:28:33,754
That baby is the equivalent of me here
435
00:28:33,837 --> 00:28:37,007
or in a stadium with Beyoncé,
whatever it is.
436
00:28:37,090 --> 00:28:39,426
It's literally what's going on
in that little baby's brain,
437
00:28:39,509 --> 00:28:40,552
loving that.
438
00:28:43,639 --> 00:28:45,432
That's what this box is about, really.
439
00:28:46,183 --> 00:28:49,478
I have been trying
to fit different projects
440
00:28:49,561 --> 00:28:52,272
through different apertures
in my own little practice.
441
00:28:52,356 --> 00:28:54,191
It's a little retrospective.
442
00:29:00,197 --> 00:29:02,449
This is Rye, in East Sussex.
443
00:29:02,532 --> 00:29:05,702
We moved here when I was six,
and we lived here till I was 13.
444
00:29:06,787 --> 00:29:11,458
And it happens to have in its town center,
a model of this town.
445
00:29:16,463 --> 00:29:19,758
The model tells stories,
which I was very captivated by.
446
00:29:20,384 --> 00:29:22,678
A ghost story, or a fable,
447
00:29:22,761 --> 00:29:27,057
or the story of a butcher
who killed a mayor.
448
00:29:28,725 --> 00:29:32,813
My house is just there,
and the roof is actually a pair of roofs.
449
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,900
And I used to climb out
and sit in the little V out on that roof
450
00:29:36,984 --> 00:29:38,485
and look out over the town.
451
00:29:39,695 --> 00:29:44,283
I started to associate storytelling
with models.
452
00:29:45,367 --> 00:29:49,204
The systems and influences
453
00:29:49,288 --> 00:29:52,374
of one's childhood are inescapable.
454
00:29:53,208 --> 00:29:56,128
There's something about this
that I'm absolutely drawn to,
455
00:29:56,211 --> 00:29:58,797
and my mind mentally enters
all of its streets.
456
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,134
But there is another part of me that does
sort of wonder what would happen
457
00:30:02,217 --> 00:30:04,428
if you just picked them up
and smashed them apart.
458
00:30:05,178 --> 00:30:07,556
You know, what if you put in
something really subversive
459
00:30:07,639 --> 00:30:09,182
or poured some paint over it?
460
00:30:11,351 --> 00:30:14,313
My work is as much a reaction against this
461
00:30:14,396 --> 00:30:17,607
as it is continuing to perpetuate
the influence of this.
462
00:30:22,904 --> 00:30:26,575
You can perceive the systems of a city
463
00:30:26,658 --> 00:30:29,453
and the history of a city,
when you look down on it.
464
00:30:29,536 --> 00:30:33,248
The roads that were built
on top of the other roads,
465
00:30:33,332 --> 00:30:34,791
the periods of time...
466
00:30:36,043 --> 00:30:40,630
So how I often use model cities
is I don't put them on the floor,
467
00:30:40,714 --> 00:30:41,882
I put them on the wall.
468
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:46,762
Which puts the audience on the ceiling,
which I find fun,
469
00:30:46,845 --> 00:30:49,097
and people do feel something
when they look down.
470
00:30:49,181 --> 00:30:51,433
We feel something here, I think,
471
00:30:51,516 --> 00:30:55,687
and if you can bring this feeling
into a black box theater, that's exciting.
472
00:30:56,438 --> 00:30:57,856
I play with scale.
473
00:30:57,939 --> 00:31:02,944
Scale is one of my ingredients, I guess,
just literally practically in my studio.
474
00:31:03,028 --> 00:31:05,030
I have people of all different heights.
475
00:31:06,281 --> 00:31:10,202
And one of the things
that I enjoy in my practice
476
00:31:10,285 --> 00:31:15,457
is to position a human, huge or tiny,
in relation to the same object.
477
00:31:18,794 --> 00:31:21,713
Recently, on the Adele show,
478
00:31:21,797 --> 00:31:24,591
her makeup artist
became our scenic painter
479
00:31:24,674 --> 00:31:27,219
because we knew that her eye
would be this big
480
00:31:27,302 --> 00:31:30,472
and that bit of mascara
would interact with her hand here.
481
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,811
When I look over this particular city,
482
00:31:35,894 --> 00:31:38,855
I play a little time-lapse
of my own journeys through it,
483
00:31:38,939 --> 00:31:42,401
my own arrival on that train
when I was a kid,
484
00:31:42,484 --> 00:31:46,029
the number of times I walked up and down
Tottenham Court Road,
485
00:31:46,113 --> 00:31:48,115
when I worked in a bookshop there...
486
00:31:48,573 --> 00:31:51,410
Perceiving the system,
finding the systems,
487
00:31:51,493 --> 00:31:53,537
finding the patterns I guess, isn't it?
488
00:31:53,620 --> 00:31:57,290
It's much easier to find a pattern
if you're looking down on something.
489
00:32:03,130 --> 00:32:06,591
This is another pair of artists
that I collaborate with.
490
00:32:07,217 --> 00:32:09,594
Kanye and Jay Z, for Watch the Throne.
491
00:32:13,098 --> 00:32:15,642
Once we said, "Okay, 'Throne.'
492
00:32:17,561 --> 00:32:20,439
What does 'Throne'
actually mean in this context?"
493
00:32:21,356 --> 00:32:23,483
And really it's about,
494
00:32:23,567 --> 00:32:26,361
once you've found yourself
in the exalted position,
495
00:32:26,820 --> 00:32:30,866
then the next thing
is the anxiety about losing that position.
496
00:32:31,533 --> 00:32:36,413
So they're at once
in positions of almighty power,
497
00:32:36,496 --> 00:32:38,206
because they're 15 foot up.
498
00:32:39,166 --> 00:32:41,626
But they're also vulnerable,
because they're standing up there
499
00:32:41,710 --> 00:32:44,963
and they could easily be shot or fall off.
500
00:32:45,797 --> 00:32:48,842
And they're alone, they kind of look
very lost and alone up there,
501
00:32:48,925 --> 00:32:52,345
so it's a combination of power
and vulnerability again, I guess.
502
00:32:55,390 --> 00:33:00,854
That tension between power and fallibility
503
00:33:00,937 --> 00:33:03,148
is very fascinating territory.
504
00:33:05,317 --> 00:33:06,401
I'm not scared.
505
00:33:08,111 --> 00:33:09,571
Just in case you're wondering.
506
00:33:09,654 --> 00:33:10,864
[laughs]
507
00:33:11,615 --> 00:33:12,782
I'm not scared.
508
00:33:14,284 --> 00:33:16,745
[Warner] Es, without any doubt
in my mind,
509
00:33:16,828 --> 00:33:21,166
is the most driven human being
I have ever met in my life.
510
00:33:21,249 --> 00:33:23,919
You know, in fact, you know,
she is so driven,
511
00:33:24,002 --> 00:33:26,421
I think her imagination
needs its own chauffeur.
512
00:33:30,467 --> 00:33:33,929
But it's not ambition in a normal sense;
513
00:33:34,012 --> 00:33:37,390
it's really about
exploring the imagination.
514
00:33:37,474 --> 00:33:38,517
[chime music playing]
515
00:33:40,810 --> 00:33:47,234
And there is quality in Beethoven
and Wagner and Shakespeare and Pinter,
516
00:33:47,317 --> 00:33:50,570
which perhaps there isn't in other fields.
517
00:33:51,696 --> 00:33:54,241
And I've got a feeling
that deeply inside Es,
518
00:33:54,324 --> 00:33:57,661
the quality has got to win through.
519
00:34:00,455 --> 00:34:05,544
This was made for Don Giovanni,
which is called the graveyard of designers
520
00:34:05,627 --> 00:34:09,673
'cause it's a notoriously hard piece
to design for precisely that reason
521
00:34:09,756 --> 00:34:15,387
that it's very specific about people
getting stuck in corridors in the dark,
522
00:34:15,470 --> 00:34:18,932
so if you don't provide the necessary
doors for all of that to go off,
523
00:34:19,516 --> 00:34:20,934
it actually doesn't work.
524
00:34:22,185 --> 00:34:24,229
So, we made a revolving box.
525
00:34:24,312 --> 00:34:28,149
It's a kind of maze.
All of these doors could slide.
526
00:34:28,233 --> 00:34:32,320
All of this could be completely closed
or any bit of it could slide or open,
527
00:34:32,404 --> 00:34:36,032
so it was like
an ever-changing architecture.
528
00:34:37,951 --> 00:34:41,788
It was projected on, on all sides,
with a mapping system.
529
00:34:45,250 --> 00:34:49,337
When you make kinetic pieces of scenery,
it's very exciting to an audience.
530
00:34:50,255 --> 00:34:54,593
She always came up with things
that made me think about things anew.
531
00:34:54,676 --> 00:34:58,138
And she talked about
the democracy of the theater.
532
00:34:58,221 --> 00:35:00,515
If you've got 20 people on stage,
533
00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:03,143
you cannot control
where the audience looks.
534
00:35:03,685 --> 00:35:05,645
The theater demands that democracy,
535
00:35:05,729 --> 00:35:08,648
where you're making sure everybody
from the top of the house,
536
00:35:08,732 --> 00:35:11,401
to the bottom of the house
is getting an experience.
537
00:35:12,861 --> 00:35:15,530
[Es] The rook in Wagner's Parsifal.
538
00:35:16,406 --> 00:35:18,742
What happens throughout the piece
is it turns
539
00:35:18,825 --> 00:35:20,827
and you see it from every angle.
540
00:35:22,162 --> 00:35:27,167
The reason we chose the rook was because
it's a symbol that everybody recognizes.
541
00:35:27,667 --> 00:35:32,255
It's not necessary
for the audience to know every detail.
542
00:35:32,339 --> 00:35:35,717
It's actually more helpful
to create an object
543
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,844
that, for everybody, has meaning.
544
00:35:39,763 --> 00:35:42,474
For example, how you feel in a tunnel.
545
00:35:42,557 --> 00:35:45,810
I think there are just
these absolutely basic, atavistic,
546
00:35:45,894 --> 00:35:47,646
primal responses we all have
547
00:35:47,729 --> 00:35:50,190
to being in a dark, curved tunnel space.
548
00:35:52,275 --> 00:35:57,489
So I do think, on everybody,
there's an emotional response to that.
549
00:35:58,907 --> 00:36:02,243
But the things that I create
are not the things.
550
00:36:03,662 --> 00:36:07,582
They are the time
that the people at the show spend
551
00:36:07,666 --> 00:36:09,334
in the company of the things.
552
00:36:09,876 --> 00:36:13,129
So it's time that you're making, really.
553
00:36:14,172 --> 00:36:15,674
Time perceived by an audience.
554
00:36:15,757 --> 00:36:17,133
[pulsating sounds playing]
555
00:36:17,676 --> 00:36:22,347
The objects themselves
are not what you think they are.
556
00:36:23,473 --> 00:36:25,975
What I am trying to say is
if you were to keep the things I make
557
00:36:26,059 --> 00:36:27,227
and put them in an art gallery,
558
00:36:27,310 --> 00:36:31,523
they wouldn't be behaving
as they were designed to behave.
559
00:36:32,148 --> 00:36:34,234
They can only do that in time.
560
00:36:34,317 --> 00:36:36,945
Reflecting the light and projections
in different ways,
561
00:36:37,028 --> 00:36:38,405
with different people inside them,
562
00:36:38,488 --> 00:36:41,199
saying different words
with different sound effects.
563
00:36:42,409 --> 00:36:45,662
With Hamlet, we made
a very specific timeline.
564
00:36:46,871 --> 00:36:49,249
We read the pages of the script,
565
00:36:49,332 --> 00:36:53,670
and we literally make a chart,
second by second, page by page.
566
00:36:53,753 --> 00:36:55,880
What is happening? Who is saying what?
567
00:36:56,923 --> 00:36:59,008
As I start to shade things in,
568
00:36:59,092 --> 00:37:02,262
what I'm always thinking about
is how the audience will feel.
569
00:37:03,304 --> 00:37:06,808
How long will they experience this for
and then what will happen next?
570
00:37:07,392 --> 00:37:09,561
Everything else is sort of serving that.
571
00:37:12,313 --> 00:37:14,941
[Bradwell] The design you see
is the tip of the iceberg.
572
00:37:15,024 --> 00:37:18,820
But the amount of work you do
to provide that tip of the iceberg
573
00:37:18,903 --> 00:37:20,155
is what's important.
574
00:37:20,238 --> 00:37:21,656
It will hold you up.
575
00:37:24,909 --> 00:37:29,873
When I was a child, what I'm doing
right now was my idea of utter heaven.
576
00:37:29,956 --> 00:37:33,126
This was pretty much what I wanted to do.
577
00:37:34,127 --> 00:37:35,920
But yeah, obviously now,
578
00:37:36,004 --> 00:37:41,968
the things I make are a little bit more
contemporary than a Pollock's toy theater.
579
00:37:42,051 --> 00:37:44,554
But, you know, look,
you're already doing surrealism.
580
00:37:44,637 --> 00:37:46,264
I'm just doing that, look,
581
00:37:46,347 --> 00:37:47,432
or I'm doing this.
582
00:37:49,309 --> 00:37:55,231
With Hamlet, we made a very specific copy
of an Edwardian stately home,
583
00:37:55,315 --> 00:38:00,069
and it had to be that specific
and that real and naturalistic,
584
00:38:00,153 --> 00:38:07,035
so that we could then violate it
with an influx of black poisonous earth.
585
00:38:08,495 --> 00:38:11,664
So sometimes, as in the rules
of a surreal painting,
586
00:38:12,165 --> 00:38:14,501
surrealism works because there's reality.
587
00:38:16,878 --> 00:38:19,964
[Es] Here, Lulu, try this one. Look.
If you push it in here...
588
00:38:21,674 --> 00:38:25,094
-Then push it from there. There you go.
-But this is supposed to be the curtain.
589
00:38:25,178 --> 00:38:27,722
-[Es] That is the curtain.
-[Ludo] He died.
590
00:38:27,806 --> 00:38:29,224
You put it in here, Milly.
591
00:38:29,307 --> 00:38:30,433
-[Ry] Where?
-[Es] Here.
592
00:38:30,517 --> 00:38:31,392
[Ry] Oh.
593
00:38:32,185 --> 00:38:34,979
[Es] There is a parallel
with some of the artists that I work with
594
00:38:35,063 --> 00:38:40,026
who feel that once you've toured the world
and have played in front of 80,000 people,
595
00:38:40,109 --> 00:38:42,987
you then say, "Well, what do I
actually want to make for me?"
596
00:38:43,446 --> 00:38:45,365
I ask why this needs to happen.
597
00:38:45,448 --> 00:38:47,158
[Ry] Wait, don't pull the curtain up yet.
598
00:38:47,826 --> 00:38:49,661
-[Ludo] Ooh.
-And...
599
00:38:50,411 --> 00:38:51,746
-Go!
-[Ludo hums]
600
00:38:51,830 --> 00:38:53,289
[Es] I do it for love.
601
00:38:54,541 --> 00:38:57,126
I thought
that if I made a beautiful object,
602
00:38:57,210 --> 00:39:00,171
it was the most important use of my time.
603
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,883
[playful music playing]
604
00:39:28,867 --> 00:39:33,746
[Es] Theater makers are aware of the
ephemerality of what they're making.
605
00:39:35,290 --> 00:39:36,541
Nothing's going to last.
606
00:39:37,458 --> 00:39:41,629
You know when you set out to make it
that it's going to be gone.
607
00:39:43,006 --> 00:39:45,550
Sometimes in a week,
sometimes in four days,
608
00:39:46,134 --> 00:39:47,343
sometimes in four years.
609
00:39:50,763 --> 00:39:53,683
In the end, everything is only
going to exist in the memories of people.
610
00:40:08,615 --> 00:40:11,284
You had to be there on that night,
611
00:40:11,367 --> 00:40:15,330
to see that performance from
Benedict Cumberbatch, or from Beyoncé.
612
00:40:15,413 --> 00:40:18,499
Or Kanye West is only going to say it
on that day.
613
00:40:19,792 --> 00:40:21,920
[playful music continues]
614
00:40:24,213 --> 00:40:26,299
[Es] So that will only exist
in people's memories.
615
00:40:28,384 --> 00:40:30,428
[playful music continues]
616
00:40:58,748 --> 00:41:00,750
[music playing]