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In the spring of 1986,
Margaret Thatcher received an urgent

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and secret request
from the American President.

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Ronald Reagan asked her to let him
use British air bases

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for an attack on the
Libyan President, Colonel Gaddafi.

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The Prime Minister agreed.

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France and other European
allies had refused.

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It had the effect of cementing
the Anglo-American alliance.

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There's another point.

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What's the good of having bases
if when you want to use them,

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you're not allowed to,
by the home country.

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It made America realise that Britain
was her real and true friend,

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erm, when they were hard up against
it and wanted something,

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and that no-one else in Europe was.

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They're a weak lot, some of them
in Europe, you know. Weak. Feeble.

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Mrs Thatcher's support for the raid
on Tripoli was a potent sign

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of her respect for the special
relationship between Britain

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and the United States,

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and her disregard for Europe.

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But the attack in reprisal
for Libyan terrorism

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caused deep unease
on all sides in Britain.

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I opposed the bombing of Libya

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because it was a blatant
breach of international law.

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It was an attempt to kill
the ruler of a state with which

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we had diplomatic relations.
It was also a failure.

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And it did us enormous harm
in the rest of the Arab world.

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She did give the world
the impression that when Reagan

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said jump, she would ask how high?

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Many of Margaret Thatcher's
colleagues shared the Labour Party's

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hostility to the raid.

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They saw it as typical of the Prime
Minister's disregard for Cabinet

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government and her increasingly
Presidential style.

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Some learned of the raid
only as the planes returned.

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The Libyan bombing came as much
of a surprise to me

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as it did to anybody else.

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And as the news began to come
through, I was in a quite

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difficult position, because I didn't
know what was going on.

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Mrs Thatcher was being
widely accused

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of being a poodle of
President Reagan.

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And I felt that if the operation
were to be conducted at all,

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that it would have been wiser,
had British aircraft taken

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part in it as well, so that
it would be a joint operation,

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rather than one which could be shown,

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or one that could be described as us
acting in a subservient role.

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The Reagans' Ranch
high in the mountains

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above Santa Barbara, California.
Thank you. Oh, Margaret!

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We're like explorers! We are
so sorry that... Lovely to see you!

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Wonderful! How are you? I'm fine,
how are you? We're so sorry...

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Margaret Thatcher has always enjoyed

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a warm friendship with the
Republican President, Ronald Reagan,

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and his wife Nancy.

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It was quite tiring last night,
wasn't it? Quite tiring last night.

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Yes, yes. Yes, it was.
This is fabulous.

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They shared the same right-wing
philosophy - a belief in the

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free market, low taxes, minimum
government and a strong defence.

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A mac and an umbrella is compulsory
for visiting America!

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Ronald Reagan had first been
impressed by Margaret Thatcher

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when she was a junior minister
in Edward Heath's government.

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Lord somebody or the other came
over to me there and he said,

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well, what did you
think of our Miss Thatcher?

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And I told him
in no uncertain terms, what I did.

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And the last sentence of my remarks
were,

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I think she'd make a magnificent
Prime Minister.

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And he said, "Oh, my dear fellow,
a WOMAN Prime Minister?!"

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And I said, "Well, you had a queen
named Victoria who did rather well."

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And he said, "Jove,
I'd forgotten all about that."

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When in power, the two leaders
developed a diplomatic love affair.

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Each one vying to outdo
the other's praise.

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We share so many of the same goals
and a determination to achieve them,

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which you summed up so well and alas,
I cannot imitate this

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wonderful American English accent,
you ain't seen nothin' yet!
SHE LAUGHS

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LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

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Based on the career that
I once had before this one,

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you are a very tough act to follow!

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LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

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On a trip to the States in 1986,

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Mrs Thatcher addressed
a seminar on arms control.

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What followed was vintage Thatcher.

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Mrs Thatcher saw this
as an opportunity to get HER views

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across to a very large number
of American officials, serried

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ranks of them, indeed, sitting
on the other side of the table.

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And she was never one to pass up
that sort of opportunity.

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And she talked and she talked
and she talked,

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and she really made sure that her
views got across, and to make

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doubly sure, she repeated them
again, and probably a third time.

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And after about ten minutes,
I'm sitting outside with Reagan,

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and I notice out of corner of my
eyes, that there's

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Reagan kind of inhaling
and ready to talk, wanting to talk,

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and Margaret Thatcher says,
"One minute, Ronnie,

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"let me just finish this."

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And I remember the other side
looking increasingly

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shell-shocked as wave after wave of
Thatcher views came pouring over the

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table, hordes of them. It was quite
an experience for them, I think.

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I remember walking away
from the meeting afterwards,

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and someone turning to Reagan
as he walked down the hallway

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and saying, "Boy, she's not a very
good listener, is she?"

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And Reagan - face lights up,
turns to this person, says,

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"No, but she's a marvellous talker!"

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Above all, the two leaders felt
they had a sacred mission to defeat

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communism and its bastion,
the Soviet Union.

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Up to that time,

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the whole doctrine had been
one of contain communism.

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That wasn't enough for Ronald Reagan
and me.

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We thought, the free world was by far
the best way to live,

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the free world under rule of law.

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And we thought,
we should make it quite clear to

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communism that it could and WOULD
never win, and that we were going to

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fight the battle of ideas between
what the free world had to offer,

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compared with the dictatorship and
tyranny and cruelty of communism.

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At the British Embassy
in Moscow,

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Margaret Thatcher has a
lunch date with

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Mikhail Gorbachev, the former Soviet
leader. It's still in good shape.

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There's one thing
in the Kremlin which is...

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As with Ronald Reagan, she developed
a particular rapport with

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the Soviet leader and his wife,
Raisa Gorbachev.

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The assumption,
it's called the assumption...

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THEY ALL SPEAK OVER EACH OTHER

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So this is... The other buildings
are a bit smaller.

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It was with Gorbachev that she
fought the battle of ideas

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and witnessed
the end of the Cold War.

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The break-up of the Soviet Union

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came about while the transatlantic
alliance was led by two

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right-wingers,
Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher.

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Both now believe their common
stance hastened

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the end of the Cold War.

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It was marvellous that we had
President Reagan at the same

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time as you in Moscow.

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And President Reagan was a lovely man
to deal with.

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You both got on so well.

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And I think that just helped
to bring the Cold War to an end.

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Margaret Thatcher first met Mikhail
Gorbachev in December 1984 when,

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as a rising communist official, he
led a Soviet delegation to Britain.

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It was the Foreign Office who
spotted the potential of this

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future leader, and advised
the Prime Minister to invite

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Mikhail Gorbachev down to Chequers.

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And he arrived there, just
before lunch, on a December day.

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And from the very first moment,
it was clear that here was

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an exceptional man.
You could tell.

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I would say that he radiated power,
like no-one I have ever seen.

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He's, as you know, stocky in build.
Very alert.

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Eyes swivelling around the whole
time, picking up people,

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darting around,
talking very rapidly.

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Normally, when you talk to a Soviet
politician,

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he arrives with a pile of papers.

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And you ask a question, and he looks
through the papers

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and finds the answer.

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And the answer is not satisfactory,
so you ask another question

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and he looks through the papers
and find another answer, which is

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equally unsatisfactory.
You don't get anywhere.

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You don't get to grips with argument.

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Within three
months of the Chequers meeting,

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the Russian President,
Konstantin Chernenko, was dead.

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With him passed the old
order of the Soviet Union.

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Chernenko was succeeded by Mikhail
Gorbachev as the new general

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secretary of the
Soviet Communist Party.

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Gorbachev was determined to end
the Brezhnev years of stagnation

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and like Margaret Thatcher,
to reopen East-West dialogue.

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The British cultivation
of the rising Soviet politician was

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to pay large dividends.

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After the funeral,

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Margaret Thatcher made a point of
reasserting her close

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personal ties with
Mikhail Gorbachev.

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Our fundamental ideas were different,
and they remain different.

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Because he was trying to reform
communism, to change it to

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something very different,
but it was basically a reform.

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So, the method, the argument,
the debate, the getting to grips

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with the issues was the same, the
fundamental beliefs were different.

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But don't forget, I got on very well
with Mr Gorbachev, and said, this

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is a man I can do business with,
and the world can do business with.

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So did President Reagan. She laid
the foundation for what took place.

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We both had had the experience
of previous Soviet leaders.

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There were three in the first
few years of my presidency.

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And I couldn't
get along with any of them.

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And, but, this was an entirely,
entirely different.

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She had a profound
influence on President Reagan

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and particularly,
in his approach to what

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he had characterised
in 1981 as the evil empire.

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Five years later,
if Margaret Thatcher,

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his close colleague and
philosophical

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soul mate is saying, look, we can do
business with this guy, that is

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very persuasive, I think,
to President Reagan.

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In fact I know it was,
because I was there.

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In November 1986,
the American President attended an

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arms-control summit with the Soviet
leader at Reykjavik in Iceland.

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Ronald Reagan had by now
become obsessed

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with his dream of
a nuclear-free world.

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He was intent on developing his
Star Wars defence

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against missile attack,
much to Gorbachev's alarm.

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Margaret Thatcher shared

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some of the Soviet leader's concerns
about Star Wars

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and did not believe in a future
without nuclear weapons.

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The idea that there could ever be
such a thing as a nuclear-free world,

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was a great difference of view
between Ronald Reagan and myself.

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I knew full well, that you could
no more disinvent nuclear weapons

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than you could disinvent dynamite.

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During their discussions,
Gorbachev proposed that both sides

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should destroy their nuclear
arsenals.

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To the horror of his allies, Reagan
came within an inch of giving up

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the West's nuclear deterrent.

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Only when the Soviet leader insisted
that Reagan's beloved strategic

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defence initiative, Star Wars, also
be cut, did the President hold back.

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When I heard about it,

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I just felt as if there had been
an earthquake underneath my feet.

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If you've ever been in an earthquake,
you know what it's like.

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There's no place on the ground
where you can put your feet,

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where they're safe,
because the whole thing is shaking.

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And the whole thing was shaking,
we hadn't a defence any more.

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I thought, my goodness me, I must get
over. Mrs Thatcher sallied forth.

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At the first opportunity,

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she travelled to Ronald Reagan's
Camp David retreat.

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Her purpose - to put the President
straight on nuclear deterrence.

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She also needed his assurance that
America would supply Britain

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with the Trident nuclear
weapons system.

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We had a session which ended up with
a bit of paper in which the

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Americans reaffirmed
the doctrine of nuclear deterrence,

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reaffirmed that they would
supply us with Trident,

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because of course, otherwise,

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it would have been, apart from
anything else,

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quite politically damaging to

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Mrs Thatcher, the idea,
at a time when the Labour Party was

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unilateralist of an American
President arguing for getting rid of

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nuclear weapons, when she had staked
everything and her defence policy on

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having Trident from the Americans,
that was potentially very damaging.

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Senior members of the Reagan
administration often welcomed

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Mrs Thatcher's influence over
the President.

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They shared her mistrust of his
dream of a nuclear-free world.

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Her influence was very constructive.

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And so I was always glad to see her
coming and as a matter of fact,

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I sometimes,

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when I was trying to persuade the
President of something, that I knew

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she agreed with that, and that he
was reluctant about, I was shameless

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in saying, now, Mr President,

232
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,360
here's what Margaret Thatcher
says on that subject.

233
00:17:15,360 --> 00:17:18,360
And, you know,
that she has looked into it,

234
00:17:18,360 --> 00:17:20,720
and so, you should hear me out
on this.

235
00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,640
But in the councils of Europe,
there was none of the mutual

236
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,720
admiration that had grown up
between Margaret Thatcher

237
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:30,560
and Ronald Reagan.
Margaret Thatcher's

238
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:31,760
suspicion of the community

239
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,120
and her preference for all things
American had come to alarm

240
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:38,040
her fellow heads of state
and her Foreign Secretary.

241
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,760
As Mrs Thatcher turned to America,
Sir Geoffrey Howe became more

242
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,800
cautious about the special
relationship.

243
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,800
Every European country claims with
some good reason or another,

244
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,920
a special relationship.
Ours was special special,

245
00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,560
because of the linguistic
and historical ties,

246
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,120
and because of the enormous
defence collaboration,

247
00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:01,360
intelligence collaboration,
so it was uniquely special.

248
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:05,240
But we should never give it
an exclusive role.

249
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,040
Our relationship with Europe
was as important

250
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,200
and increasingly important.

251
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,240
It was America that came to rescue
Europe for freedom.

252
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,440
Although freedom and rule of law
had started in Europe.

253
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,680
It was the New World coming
to rescue the old.

254
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,800
And so, your policies weren't
built on America or Europe,

255
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:29,120
they were built on the way of life
of a free society and a free people.

256
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,240
And people who tried to separate
the two had only shallow

257
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,800
understanding of what it
was all about.

258
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:43,880
In her view, I have the feeling
that the Channel still remains to be

259
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,360
much wider than the North Atlantic,

260
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:48,760
between London and Washington.

261
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:54,840
So, we continental Europeans had to
take this as a fact of life,

262
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,600
which we couldn't change.

263
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:02,240
We did not expect Britain to
leave the community,

264
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,160
and we did not expect
Maggie Thatcher to govern

265
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:10,680
the country for 25 years, so we had
to wait for better weather.

266
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,800
Shortly before the 1987 general
election, Mikhail Gorbachev

267
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:24,920
asked Mrs Thatcher to visit Moscow,
an invitation she eagerly accepted.

268
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,960
She was always happiest when cutting
a figure on the international

269
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,800
scene, away from what she saw
as the petty squabbles of domestic

270
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,000
politics and the infighting
of the European Community.

271
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,760
The visit also had
the advantage of being the perfect

272
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:42,960
springboard for her election
campaign.

273
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,920
For some time, those close to the
Prime Minister had felt that

274
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,600
her appearance was not quite
suitable for a world leader.

275
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,600
The time had come
for a change of image.

276
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,360
I had seen a very beautiful black
coat in Aquascutum's window

277
00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:05,720
in Regent Street.

278
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,040
And it had wonderful shoulders,
you know, the really big shoulders.

279
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,440
And she has always looked
very good in black.

280
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:20,080
So I said to her, "If you're going
off to see Mrs Gorbachev,

281
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,240
"who I believe is dressed mostly in
Yves Saint Laurent, I wonder if

282
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,000
"I could go and get this coat,
this lovely black coat."

283
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,720
And she said, "By all means."

284
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,680
So I went up and got it
and of course I brought it back

285
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,400
and she looked absolutely stunning
in it.

286
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:42,720
She took with her the whole range of
the Aquascutum latest models.

287
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:47,160
'And she wore these clothes
magnificently.

288
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:53,080
'And the Russians adored the clothes
and adored her for wearing them.

289
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,400
'And that was pure feminine guile.'

290
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,600
She was not unaware that this was
very helpful at home,

291
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,800
especially if you've got
an election coming up.

292
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,520
Mikhail Gorbachev had picked
Margaret Thatcher

293
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,040
as the European leader most likely
to influence the United States.

294
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,520
He hoped that she might help bridge
the gulf between East and West.

295
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,760
For her part,
Mrs Thatcher confronted

296
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,640
Mikhail Gorbachev with her
views on the evils of communism.

297
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,440
'We had the practice of not having
many advisers,

298
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,280
'and we got on best of all

299
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,280
'when I had just one secretary
with me, he had one with him.

300
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,000
'He had his interpreter and I had
mine. I had mine, an expert,

301
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:44,440
'so I knew that what I said would
be interpreted accurately.

302
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,480
'I wasn't going to have any
interpreter afraid to say

303
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,360
'to Mr Gorbachev what I was saying.'

304
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:54,840
And he would bully me, it seemed,
and I would believe him back.

305
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,040
Then I'd say, "Now, come on,
let's get down to the issues."

306
00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,880
TRANSLATED FROM RUSSIAN:

307
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:31,160
There were moments where there were
just four of us sitting there

308
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,200
round a small table,

309
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,200
and they were leaning across this
table, their faces coming closer

310
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,120
and closer together, and speaking
really very fiercely at each other.

311
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:42,920
Neither of them willing to yield.
Then, suddenly, just like that,

312
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,000
Gorbachev would manage to
break the tension.

313
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,320
He would sit back, relax,
he would laugh,

314
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:48,840
he would make a joke or something.

315
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,760
And then they would get back to
a calmer form of discussion.

316
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,000
And then they would again build up
to a sort of crisis point.

317
00:22:57,360 --> 00:22:59,600
The Prime Minister had made
a special request to

318
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,120
Mr Gorbachev that she
should visit a church

319
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:04,680
and witness freedom of worship
at first-hand.

320
00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:10,160
The Soviet leader agreed,

321
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,200
and Mrs Thatcher made a pilgrimage
to the shrine of Zagorsk.

322
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,760
SIRENS BLARE

323
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,160
The visit to the Soviet Union was
a coup for Margaret Thatcher.

324
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,840
The pictures of her in the by now
famous outfits were

325
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,080
splashed across the British press.

326
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,120
As a prelude to an election
campaign,

327
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:25,520
it was a politician's dream.

328
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,800
If you look back at the opinion
polls and things,

329
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,960
you will find a sort of welling
up of support for the government.

330
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,920
It dates from more or less the time
of the Moscow visit,

331
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,520
and that helped create a momentum
which helped - helped, I say -

332
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:41,960
win the 1987 election.

333
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,400
Early in May 1987,
the Prime Minister

334
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,360
announced that she was going to the
palace to seek a dissolution

335
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:56,960
of Parliament, and declared a
general election on 11th June.

336
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,280
Although from the beginning
the Conservative Party was ahead

337
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,080
in the polls, the election was not
a happy one for Margaret Thatcher.

338
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,480
She dominated her party and became
a leading figure on the world stage.

339
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,400
But behind the show of party unity,

340
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,000
there were mutterings
about a possible successor.

341
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,800
The Prime Minister felt threatened
by rivals, real or imaginary.

342
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,200
Geoffrey, can you just stand back
a bit now?

343
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,120
Most importantly, her relationship
with the party chairman

344
00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:33,200
at Central Office, Norman Tebbit,

345
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,600
was going through a rare period
of coolness.

346
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,920
Every Prime Minister, I guess
like every medieval monarch,

347
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,200
is wondering who
has their eyes on the crown.

348
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,600
Who has power centres which could
set them up as a rival.

349
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,800
And I wanted to make
changes at Central Office,

350
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:03,000
some of which would have made it
more powerful.

351
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,880
She was ambivalent.

352
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,200
She wanted Central Office to be
extraordinarily powerful -

353
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,800
a well-oiled machine -
once she had called an election.

354
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:19,640
But I think she was always concerned
that it was another barony.

355
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:25,800
She began to feel that there was a
moment when Norman's interest

356
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:31,040
was as much in promoting his own
career as in supporting her.

357
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,760
And I think if you start to
feel like that,

358
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:40,840
that your party chairman sees
himself as a successor,

359
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:47,120
then I think you have the seeds
of misunderstanding and distrust.

360
00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:53,520
I don't think I saw as much of Norman
as I would had he been a minister.

361
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,840
I think that was probably
one of the problems.

362
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,560
When he was a minister,
we saw one another very often.

363
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,520
When he was chairman of the party,

364
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,360
he came as Chancellor of the Duchy
to a cabinet meeting.

365
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:06,760
But I perhaps didn't work as closely
together with him

366
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,080
as we did as ministerial colleagues.

367
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,280
That might have been a little bit
of the problem.

368
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,680
Plus the fact that things were not
going well at the beginning.

369
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,680
Lord Young joined Norman Tebbit
running the election campaign.

370
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,640
The Prime Minister was
concerned about Norman Tebbit's

371
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,680
handling of the party's bureaucracy.

372
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,120
David Young was her current
favourite.

373
00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:34,040
He was a businessman whom
she had made a cabinet minister,

374
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,680
and he was ordered to keep an eye
on Norman Tebbit at Central Office.

375
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,640
In the words of Nigel Lawson,
the two generals spent as much

376
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,600
time fighting each other as they did
fighting the enemy.

377
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:53,120
Very often, when I was talking to
David, as I did, about my own

378
00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:57,400
ideas as to what might be done
and how we might handle things,

379
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:02,000
initiatives that might be taken,
when those ideas were at a very

380
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:07,840
early stage, I thought we were
merely discussing those privately.

381
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,880
I came to believe afterwards that he
had been taking them to the

382
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,560
Prime Minister and
expressing them as his own ideas.

383
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,680
I never needed to do that once.

384
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,920
No, that is nonsense.

385
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,360
I regret he even thinks that,

386
00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:27,680
because that was certainly not
the case in those days.

387
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,880
Indeed, it was the other way round.

388
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,400
The Conservative campaign got off
to a slow start.

389
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,320
One at a time. What do you want us
to do? No, which one? The big one.

390
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,880
Margaret Thatcher's election tour
seemed designed

391
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:45,280
more as a photo opportunity than
a chance to meet the people.

392
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,360
Indeed, it seemed a tacit
admission by her party that she was

393
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,520
more popular with the Russians
than she was

394
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,640
with the voters in her own country.

395
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:56,720
Particularly in later years,

396
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:03,000
she was greeted almost everywhere
she went as a sort of hero figure.

397
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,320
Huge crowds would turn out.
She got a very warm welcome.

398
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,960
Foreign leaders certainly had
a great respect for her view.

399
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,720
This was in great contrast,
in a way,

400
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,960
to how she was viewed in Britain.

401
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,240
I suppose it's the old saying,
the old adage, of a prophet

402
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,520
being without honour
in his own country.

403
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,160
At the end of the day, I think
Mrs Thatcher was more admired,

404
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,840
more respected abroad,
than she ever was at home.

405
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,640
David Young was in charge
of Mrs Thatcher's bus tours.

406
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,360
Any other news?

407
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,600
The party chairman, Norman Tebbit,
thought they were a shambles.

408
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,360
If I were to be running that
campaign again,

409
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:49,080
I would've taken personal control
of the Prime Minister's tours.

410
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:56,000
I think it was very clear that
there was severe...friction,

411
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,400
that they were badly managed.

412
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,080
There was one extraordinary
occasion when

413
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,160
she arrived for a series of great
industrial meetings at a town

414
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,800
where the factories were closed
for the holidays, for example.

415
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,000
'I'm not going to go back
into that sort of thing.

416
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,920
'If Norman wants to say that,
he can.'

417
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,160
This is the crucial thing
about an election campaign.

418
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,600
He had lost her confidence.

419
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,840
And in an election campaign,

420
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,880
having the confidence of the Prime
Minister is incredibly important.

421
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,240
Labour have got off to
a very glitzy start,

422
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,720
we'd had those incredible
commercials for party

423
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:46,600
political broadcasts that showed
Kinnock in a very rosy light.

424
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,200
And we were getting a tremendous
number of phone calls

425
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,240
the whole time, and she was being
told round the country that we were

426
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:54,840
looking a bit amateurish.

427
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,960
The Prime Minister got the message.

428
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,200
She wanted to meet the people but
was taken instead to a dogs' home.

429
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,080
As she herself said,
"Dogs don't have votes."

430
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,920
Mrs Thatcher was worried that
Norman Tebbit was deliberately

431
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,080
keeping her out of the limelight.

432
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,840
Before the campaign, he brought her
research which implied

433
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,080
that she was unpopular
with the voters.

434
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,240
They called it the TBW -
"That Bloody Woman Syndrome".

435
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:27,040
I had been asked,
did I know what TBW meant?

436
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,080
Well, in electoral terms, I didn't,
and indeed, in government,

437
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,280
you have so many letters that another
lot, you think, "Whatever is that?"

438
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,000
And then they told me
it means "That B Woman".

439
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,160
And so for that reason they felt it
was better to keep me off television.

440
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,280
I did venture to say that
I had won two elections.

441
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,560
Things came to a head
on Thursday 4th June,

442
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,720
a day to be immortalised
as "Wobbly Thursday".

443
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,840
The Prime Minister was
suffering from toothache and she was

444
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,360
too busy answering questions about
private health to have it treated.

445
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,440
I had that question
on the phone-in yesterday.

446
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,400
I'm sorry you didn't listen to the
answer. Can't be everywhere.

447
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,080
No, can't be everywhere, no,
but you can listen.

448
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,320
LAUGHTER

449
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,080
To make matters worse, only
a week before election day, a poll

450
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,960
had been published which slashed
the Conservatives' lead over Labour.

451
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,480
At an early morning meeting
at the Conservative Party's

452
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,320
Central Office, Margaret Thatcher
responded furiously.

453
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,360
Her demeanour at that meeting was
unreasoning and unreasonable

454
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:30,760
and close to hysteria.

455
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:38,120
Where it was impossible to put
a point or even to be listened to.

456
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,800
And it was quite clear that there
was no point in saying anything.

457
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,480
That same Thursday,
the Prime Minister had to go through

458
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,920
with a planned visit to
a factory making diggers

459
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,600
and a theme park, all the while
anxious about the opinion polls.

460
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:07,960
SCREAMING

461
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,080
'It was supposed to be
the fun day out where we would

462
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,720
'go on the rides
and get good pictures for the press.

463
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,720
'We had actually been
looking forward to it,

464
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,600
'but the atmosphere was terrible
in that we were all

465
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,040
'waiting to see what this poll would
bring in the evening.'

466
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,680
The Prime Minister was very
apprehensive.

467
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,320
She was not her usual relaxed self.

468
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,920
That was reflected throughout the
whole of the team accompanying her.

469
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,040
And we would be constantly
on the telephone to Central Office

470
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,200
and there was just a mood of
jitters.

471
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,840
You can imagine how
terrible I felt.

472
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,600
And I heard one of the television
commentators say,

473
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,440
"That's it,
she's downhill all the way."

474
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,640
But one smiled one's way round
and went round and saw everything

475
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,720
and then got back to London.

476
00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:01,000
Now, at no time did they tell me
that that had been a rogue poll.

477
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,520
It was absolutely out of keeping
with all of the others,

478
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,480
and I needn't worry about it.
They just didn't tell me that.

479
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,960
So I was worried, and naturally,

480
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,400
I had to see that we then
got our message across and then

481
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,080
we swung from what we were going to
do in the future to pointing out

482
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,880
what we had done in the past.

483
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,000
In the light of the poor poll,
Margaret Thatcher ordered

484
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,440
that Norman Tebbit's advertising
campaign should be dumped.

485
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,040
In its place, Lord Young produced
a series of posters stressing

486
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,320
the past achievements
of Margaret Thatcher's government.

487
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,800
Lord Young showed the new
advertisements to Norman Tebbit.

488
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,320
And he looked at them and he exploded
and he said, "You can't have that."

489
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,000
And that's when I lost my cool,
and I got hold of Norman

490
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,880
and I did shake him, and I said,
"Norman, if you don't do this,

491
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,440
"we're going to blankety blank
lose this election," I said.

492
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,080
"And it won't matter what you
think or I think.

493
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,520
"Now, if this what she wants,
this is what she's going to get."

494
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,280
It was rather more fraught language.

495
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,760
I leave people to judge whether it's
likely I would have been seized

496
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,680
by the lapels,
without some retribution

497
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,120
falling upon he that did it.

498
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,000
So... But certainly I can say that,
at that moment,

499
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:26,680
David Young was convinced that we
had lost the election.

500
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,760
He changed his mind when he got home

501
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,200
and saw the next day's
opinion polls.

502
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,800
In the event,
the poll which prompted

503
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,480
Wobbly Thursday
proved to be wholly inaccurate.

504
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:38,720
The Conservative Party

505
00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:42,320
could go to the polls, one week
later, confident of victory.

506
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,080
On June 11, 1987, Margaret Thatcher
and the Conservative Party

507
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,280
won a third term,
with a majority of 101.

508
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,120
The upswing in the economy,
together with the opposition split

509
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,400
between Labour and the Alliance,
ensured victory.

510
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,480
We have a lot of work to do tomorrow.

511
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,880
For Margaret Thatcher,
the 1987 election victory

512
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,760
was a personal,
as well as a political, triumph.

513
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,200
She was the first Prime Minister
this century

514
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,840
to win three successive
election victories.

515
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,720
She may not have had great personal
appeal, but many of her policies -

516
00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:21,240
in particular, privatisation,
the spread of home ownership

517
00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:24,160
and lower direct taxes -
were popular in the country

518
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:25,760
and were being copied abroad.

519
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,280
A hat-trick was quite something
in politics.

520
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,120
Quite something. Quite rare.

521
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,480
But you know, it was because the
British people didn't think much

522
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,440
of our opponents.
They didn't like those policies.

523
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,920
Those policies weren't
right for the character of Britain

524
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:49,360
and ours were.
And Britain was riding high.

525
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:50,800
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

526
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,280
But behind the jubilation,
the campaign left a sour taste.

527
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,160
Norman Tebbit told her,
shortly before the poll,

528
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,240
that he would not rejoin
her Cabinet.

529
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:03,800
'I think it's fair'

530
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:11,720
to say, as always, that, if having
been close to a great leader

531
00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:15,360
and having been very loyal to
that great leader,

532
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,240
one finds that other advice
is preferred,

533
00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:22,720
one can feel a little hurt. Whether
that hurt is justified or not

534
00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:27,840
is not for me to say.
That is for others to judge.

535
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,040
I think there are some people who are
rather more sensitive than others.

536
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,640
What I had to bear in mind was
it was my job to see that we won

537
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,960
that election
so our policies continued.

538
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,320
We had, therefore,
to get things right.

539
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,600
And if that meant, I'm afraid,
one or two sensitivities,

540
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,760
then, well,
we just had to ignore them.

541
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,080
Elections
are not about sensitivities,

542
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,800
they are about victory, because you
believe in what you are doing.

543
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,800
That was the objective and that was
what I had to do in that last week -

544
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,000
to see that we were able to
continue as government.

545
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,120
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

546
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,720
But many within the party
had become concerned

547
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:08,360
at the internal rivalries
and disputes during the campaign.

548
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,520
Some thought
that the Prime Minister's manner,

549
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,720
especially on Wobbly Thursday, was a
sign that she'd served long enough.

550
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:27,480
I was present at one of those
meetings at Wobble Thursday,

551
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,440
one of the early meetings...

552
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:37,440
..when her performance was such that,
one of the handful of people

553
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,880
in that meeting -
a very senior Cabinet minister -

554
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,120
left that meeting and said to me,

555
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,680
"There is a woman who will never
fight another election again."

556
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,240
Pessimists warned that

557
00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:54,320
any Prime Minister winning a third
election victory

558
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,120
was in danger of the sin of hubris -
pride before a fall -

559
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,320
but Margaret Thatcher had no
intention of standing down.

560
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,680
'There was no question of hubris.
Victory's a marvellous emollient.

561
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,520
'It soothes everyone's sensitivities.
Whatever had happened, we'd all won.'

562
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,840
Oh, no. My life was a daily battle.

563
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,920
And I never gave up.

564
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,480
The 1987 Conservative election
victory coincided with

565
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,040
one of Britain's
most long-lasting booms.

566
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,120
For a period, it looked as though
Britain's economic problems

567
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:37,320
had been cured.

568
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:42,000
# I've got the brains
You've got the looks

569
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,080
# Let's make lots of money. #

570
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,320
At the core of so-called Thatcherism
was the policy of privatisation -

571
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,240
the sale of state-owned assets
to the public - but as consumption

572
00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:56,120
increased, so did poverty.
The number of destitute

573
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,280
and homeless on the city
streets grew.

574
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,960
Crime increased. It became a
commonplace over the Thatcher years

575
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,800
that the rich got richer,
while the poor became poorer.

576
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,880
For those in work,
the times were good.

577
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,480
Thanks to the financial
deregulation, credit was easy.

578
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,200
Companies and individuals

579
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,160
borrowed more than ever before.

580
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,840
House prices
and personal debt rocketed.

581
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:31,760
'There was an enormous
feeling of optimism in the country

582
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,040
'and in the economy, among consumers
and among businessmen, of a kind

583
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,400
'that had not been known'

584
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:39,480
in this country

585
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,920
for a very, very long time.

586
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,880
There was an excessive optimism,

587
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:45,720
excessive expectations about

588
00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:49,720
what was possible. It was an arrow,
if you like, in the right direction,

589
00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:54,280
because optimism is more desirable
than gloom and defeatism,

590
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,400
but, nevertheless, it went too far.

591
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,800
Since 1983, Margaret Thatcher's
Chancellor, Nigel Lawson,

592
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,120
had pursued Thatcherite
policies with vigour.

593
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,600
He cut, and simplified, taxes.
He deregulated. He privatised.

594
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,640
But his relationship with the
Prime Minister was never an easy one

595
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,480
and their quarrels were to split
Margaret Thatcher's Cabinet in two.

596
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,600
'Nigel was secretive.'

597
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,920
I think he was a man
of many complexes.

598
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,880
He was also a man of many,
many talents.

599
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:34,120
Sometimes a very creative person
will have also great drawbacks.

600
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:39,440
But he did some very imaginative
Budgets in income tax, you know.

601
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,680
He wrote the best Budgets,
as far as style was concerned,

602
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,520
that we have ever had.

603
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:46,960
And I always took the view

604
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,480
that you've got to take
the rough with the smooth.

605
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,800
If you've got great talent
and ability,

606
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,640
then you've got to take
some of the drawbacks with it.

607
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,560
The results of Nigel Lawson's
first Budget seemed,

608
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,600
at the time, unprecedented.
Indeed, the Prime Minister

609
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,680
was confident that Britain's
economic problems had been cured,

610
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,080
so much so that,
soon after the election,

611
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,960
she ventured into the northern
industrial wastelands and promised

612
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,800
to reclaim them
for the Conservatives.

613
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,640
But beneath the show of confidence,
an argument over economic policy

614
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,880
was undermining her government.

615
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,200
For two years, the Chancellor,
Nigel Lawson, had pressed

616
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,000
for Britain's membership of the
European Exchange Rate Mechanism,

617
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,040
the ERM, to control inflation.

618
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:35,920
At a crucial meeting with senior
colleagues, in November 1985,

619
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,320
Lawson had urged Margaret Thatcher
that the time was right

620
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:40,920
for Britain to join the ERM.

621
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,200
Almost all, bar the Prime Minister,
had agreed.

622
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,400
Well, I think, in a way, we all
surprised each other by the extent

623
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,120
to which there was near unanimity
in support of that view.

624
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:58,080
And I was perhaps not surprised,
but dismayed, by the extent to which

625
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,320
the Prime Minister was reluctant to
accept that, because it seemed to me

626
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,960
that we were reaching a sensible,
constructive, vital decision.

627
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,720
Sadly, of course, because we failed
to take that opportunity then,

628
00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:13,080
we found it increasingly hard
to maintain proper management

629
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,520
of our own
counter-inflationary policy.

630
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:20,160
Margaret Thatcher, after putting up
objection after objection,

631
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,040
one after the other,

632
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:29,320
to it eventually said that...
concluded by saying,

633
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,960
"Well, if you join the ERM,
you do it without me."

634
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:39,200
And there was a deathly silence...
and then she left the room.

635
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,120
Well, I knew that they were
ganging up on me

636
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,920
and I knew that my own reasoning
was right and I was backed up

637
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,040
by my own adviser. He wasn't there,
but he put in a paper.

638
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,480
And so,
I felt strong enough to say no.

639
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:53,920
Thank goodness I did!

640
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,200
We really should have been
in the soup, had I agreed with them

641
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:58,560
and put it into action.

642
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,040
I went back into Number 11

643
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,080
and Willie Whitelaw
and Norman Tebbit came with me -

644
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,640
I asked them to - and I asked them
whether they felt really that,

645
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,120
in those circumstances,
I should resign.

646
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:17,080
And they persuaded me not to
and said they were sure that,

647
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,320
eventually,
she would come round to it.

648
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,360
Ironically, of course, eventually,
she did, although that was

649
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,800
some years later, five years later,
after I had gone and when the time

650
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:28,000
was no longer right.

651
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,960
The Prime Minister
was stiffened in her opposition

652
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:34,760
to the Exchange Rate Mechanism

653
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,760
by her economic adviser,
Professor Alan Walters,

654
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,520
an academic teaching
in the United States.

655
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,480
Walters counselled her to resist
Nigel Lawson, at all costs.

656
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:48,200
If you want to bring inflation down,
you've got to reduce...

657
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:54,640
'I don't think he ever met the
arguments which I put against it.

658
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,480
'"Sloppy Lawson."
He sails over those.'

659
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,000
I think what happened

660
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,000
was, on this issue,

661
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,000
it became a, sort of,
personal battle

662
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,040
between him and the Prime Minister.

663
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:13,160
And it was,
like so many things in politics,

664
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,520
a matter of power -
a power struggle.

665
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,800
And it had Shakespearean tones!

666
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,320
Margaret Thatcher's disagreement
over how to run the economy, had,

667
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:29,080
in the words of Nigel Lawson,
"sown the seeds of a fatal rift

668
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,040
"between the Prime Minister and her
most senior Cabinet colleagues."

669
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:37,480
Without agreement on policy,
the economy began to overheat.

670
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,760
Margaret Thatcher's colleagues saw
her preference for the opinions

671
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:45,520
of advisers like Alan Walters

672
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,080
as evidence of a growing
presidential style

673
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,240
and her further retreat
into Downing Street.

674
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:55,160
'I think that,
all people in authority - '

675
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,200
and the greater the authority,
the greater the risk -

676
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:03,080
can create for themselves a cocoon
which isolates them from

677
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,520
other influences
in the rest of the world.

678
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,760
It's the greatest
danger of leadership.

679
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:12,360
I think that it does manifest
itself by tenaciously retaining

680
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,880
a small, increasingly long-serving,
band of supporters.

681
00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:21,120
Sir Geoffrey Howe was
increasingly concerned

682
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,400
about the influence
of Charles Powell,

683
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,280
the Prime Minister's
private secretary.

684
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,080
During their trip to Russia, it was
Powell, not the Foreign Secretary,

685
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:31,320
who was ever at her side,

686
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,560
and it was Powell who went with
the Prime Minister to the meetings

687
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:35,720
with Gorbachev.

688
00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:39,160
As Geoffrey Howe and Margaret
Thatcher grew apart on Europe,

689
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,880
Powell's influence grew stronger.

690
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:49,560
'He became too closely
personally associated'

691
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,480
with the Prime Minister's positions

692
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,680
and this exacerbated what is
always a delicate relationship,

693
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,520
between the Prime Minister
and the Foreign Office

694
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:03,880
and the Foreign Secretary.
And...I think that it's another case

695
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,080
where he was in that
job for too long.

696
00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:10,880
The Prime Minister,
who didn't read the newspapers,

697
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,320
relied on Bernard Ingham,
her press secretary,

698
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:14,600
for a digest of the news.

699
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,840
Many ministers felt that Ingham had
an unhealthy relationship

700
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:21,120
with the tabloid press.

701
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,000
I'm sure that's all bumkum.
I bet it's balderdash, too.

702
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,040
Hmm? That all right?

703
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:32,240
'Bernard Ingham would try,
and often succeed,'

704
00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:36,520
in influencing
the line that The Sun took.

705
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:42,000
And then he would then
report that line and say,

706
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,880
"Look,
this is the view of the press,

707
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,080
"this is the view of the people."

708
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:51,200
In fact, it was the view that he had
given The Sun in the first place.

709
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,200
And, to some extent, he could do
that, although less so with

710
00:47:55,200 --> 00:48:01,760
the other tabloids. And I think
that it did give Margaret Thatcher

711
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,720
a distorted picture of what
was being said and, indeed,

712
00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:07,360
very often,
what her colleagues were saying.

713
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,280
Grow up, is my attitude
to that. It is fantasy.

714
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,920
I just wonder how
a Chancellor of the Exchequer

715
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:23,360
can go through life as a member
of the Cabinet and as a minister

716
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,600
and hold that view.
It's time he grew up.

717
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,720
It's the most ludicrous fantasy.

718
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:34,240
You try telling The Sun to
print anything...

719
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:40,880
..and you'll look at the results of
your trying to tell them to do so.

720
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:42,960
It's... It's...

721
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:44,720
He ought to have learned that
by now.

722
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,880
Ministers resented the power the
Prime Minister invested in Ingham,

723
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,080
with his off-the-record briefings
peppered with unflattering comments

724
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:55,760
about their performance.

725
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:57,040
Right, morning, all.

726
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,240
The Prime Minister is working
in Number Ten for much of the day

727
00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:02,840
and, at ten o'clock, she...

728
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:04,680
NIGEL LAWSON:
'The impression, clearly,

729
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,120
'was that he was HER press secretary

730
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,760
'and not the government's or
even the Cabinet's.

731
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:16,480
'And one of the ways
in which he would exalt her was by

732
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,320
'rubbishing a number of her
colleagues.'

733
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,640
That seemed to me to be bad
for the government and, indeed,

734
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,640
bad for relations between her
and those colleagues.

735
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,920
But that was something which he did
on a number of occasions.

736
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:34,320
You look at what I had to take,
day after day.

737
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,760
You look at the things
about the attitude of Nigel Lawson

738
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:43,680
and Geoffrey Howe, which found their
way into the press, day after day,

739
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:48,240
about the Exchange Rate Mechanism,
about shadowing the Deutsche Mark.

740
00:49:48,240 --> 00:49:51,040
Oh, go and look at those.

741
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,160
I never squealed....never.

742
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,760
Bernard had a lot to put up with

743
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,360
and I will not take
any criticism of Bernard.

744
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:05,440
I could wish that every one
of my ministers had done their job

745
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,880
to the same percentage
of excellence as Bernard did his.

746
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,960
No single government measure in
Margaret Thatcher's time in office

747
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,360
caused so much anger and political
difficulty as the poll tax.

748
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:33,800
It led to rioting
in the streets

749
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,080
but, more importantly
for the Prime Minister,

750
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,520
the Community Charge never won
the backing of her own supporters.

751
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,520
To this day, she insists that
the principal of the tax,

752
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:00,800
a flat fee payable by everybody for
local services, was the right one.

753
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,360
I think on Community Charge,
if the Cabinet had kept their nerve,

754
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,200
we would have got it right.

755
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,000
Of course, it takes some time and
application of fundamental principle

756
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,960
to see that everyone has a fair deal.

757
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,160
We were well on the way
to getting that

758
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,960
and if they had kept their nerve
it would have been all right.

759
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:24,440
It broke all the sort of laws

760
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:28,160
which Margaret herself
not only believed in

761
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,640
but was normally better than
anybody else at policing.

762
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,800
It made people, in a random way,

763
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,680
and some of those who could least
afford it, worse off.

764
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:44,560
All the, sort of, middle-class
strivers and savers

765
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:48,400
were clobbered by the poll tax
in that random way.

766
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,240
What is more, it offended
every political law

767
00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:55,320
because it actually TARGETED...

768
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,160
targeted floating voters
in marginal constituencies.

769
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,320
Throughout her previous two terms
in office,

770
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:09,080
the Prime Minster had been at war
with local government.

771
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,280
She regarded councils, especially
Labour ones, as overspending,

772
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,160
wasteful and unaccountable...

773
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,400
..and she believed the rates,
payable only by householders,

774
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,360
and businesses,
to be fundamentally unfair.

775
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:31,080
Why should people say, "I can vote
for this, more of this expenditure.

776
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:35,920
"Ha-ha, I won't pay a thing and you
will have to pay pretty willingly,

777
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,960
"the whole increase."
That was and is wrong.

778
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:45,400
So we were right, in principle, but
we didn't have time to get it right.

779
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:48,640
When she was asked about
the poll tax,

780
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,760
when she was asked critically
about the poll tax,

781
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:53,760
she would always defend it
in theory.

782
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,240
Now, you can make
a theoretical case for it.

783
00:52:57,240 --> 00:53:00,960
It's not, to my mind, never was,
never will be a theoretical case

784
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,240
but you can make a theoretical case.

785
00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:06,520
What is quite clear is that
in practice would be a disaster.

786
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,120
At the party conference, in 1987,

787
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,560
the Prime Minister hailed
the introduction of the new tax.

788
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:19,720
And above all, the Community Charge
will make local councils far more

789
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:22,120
accountable to all their voters.

790
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,120
But despite the show of unity,
colleagues were not all behind her.

791
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,920
In a secret memo, Nigel Lawson
warned the Cabinet that the poll tax

792
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:38,480
would be completely unworkable
and politically catastrophic.

793
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,840
He predicted that local authorities
would increase expenditure

794
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:43,960
in the run-up to the introduction.

795
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:45,760
The Prime Minister ignored him.

796
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,720
Sure enough, when councils
sent out the poll tax bills

797
00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:53,920
they were much higher
than anticipated.

798
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:58,200
Nigel Lawson refused to subsidise
a tax he opposed.

799
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,880
The Chancellor actually
had the answer,

800
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,680
to the fact that the Community Charge
was too high, available,

801
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,680
if he thought he could use it.

802
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,360
We could have dealt with
that by increasing

803
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:13,400
the grant from the Exchequer
to the local authorities.

804
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:14,800
Nigel said he could not do that

805
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,600
because he did not want to put up
public expenditure

806
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,560
but that was the way in which
it was eventually dealt with.

807
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:26,800
So the answer to Nigel was
within his own possibility to find.

808
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:30,280
Hi. Morning, sir. Hello...

809
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:34,920
In 1989 Mrs Thatcher appointed
Chris Patten, an avowed moderate,

810
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:36,480
as Environment Secretary.

811
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,280
Mr Patten, why do you think
you've been given the job? Erm...

812
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,720
..your picture taken in front of the
sign that says "DOE"? Sure, sure.

813
00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:48,920
His task, to sell the tax
more effectively.

814
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:50,480
Sorry to be unceremonious.

815
00:54:53,240 --> 00:54:57,040
Almost immediately Patten tried
to persuade the Prime Minister

816
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,520
that, in his words, the alleged
flagship in the Spithead Review

817
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:04,800
was actually a fire ship which was
going to destroy the whole fleet.

818
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:06,880
I went to see her,

819
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:11,200
there were two private secretaries
present and I said to her, "I do not

820
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:15,280
"believe that it is possible to sell
the poll tax in these circumstances.

821
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,600
"I just don't think
we're doing enough."

822
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,640
It was the only meeting that
I ever had with her

823
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:26,560
where I didn't subsequently receive
a note or a record of the meeting.

824
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:29,800
I'm not aware that he ever said
precisely that

825
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,480
because he was a vigorous
defender of it

826
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:35,480
at the despatch box,
in the House of Commons,

827
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:39,960
and made some of the best speeches,
and converted many people.

828
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:44,480
I think it was regarded
as being politically tricky

829
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:48,480
to have a Cabinet minister on
record saying,

830
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,400
"If you'd prefer me to go, I will.

831
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,400
"I've tried,
I haven't got enough money,

832
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,840
"I don't think
this is going to do the trick.

833
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,880
"I'll battle on,
if you want me to,

834
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:02,040
"but I don't think we're going
to be able to sell this."

835
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,120
THEY CHANT

836
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:13,680
The Community Charge was fast
becoming a political calamity.

837
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,480
It was widely seen as unfair
that a duke should pay

838
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:18,120
the same as a pensioner.

839
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:25,760
For the first time in living memory,
Conservative supporters in Surrey

840
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,480
took to the streets against
a Tory government.

841
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,800
The Conservative Party lost
by-elections in two safe seats

842
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:36,400
where the poll tax was an issue.

843
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:50,840
At Westminster the charge became
a focus of Conservative dissent.

844
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,400
Increasingly,
alarmed Tory backbenchers

845
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,000
threatened the government.

846
00:56:55,000 --> 00:57:00,000
Many conservatives who were
very anxious for her success

847
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,400
nonetheless felt that this was a
most disastrous piece of legislation

848
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,640
and she would insist on
identifying herself with it,

849
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:09,120
and in a most perverse way.

850
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,960
Like calling it the "flagship"
of the legislation. While...

851
00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:17,920
..I was irreverent enough to refer
to it as the Titanic and I think,

852
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:21,920
on the whole, my nautical judgment
was rather better than hers.

853
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,000
But Margaret Thatcher
was not for turning.

854
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:31,080
Increasing numbers of Conservative
backbenchers appealed to the
Prime Minister in person

855
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:33,880
to reconsider and to abolish
the Community Charge.

856
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:42,680
I went to see Mrs Thatcher and that
was where the gate clamped shut,

857
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:47,680
in my mind, as one of her
most fervent supporters.

858
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:49,160
And although I explained to her,

859
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:51,800
cos by that time the poll tax
had started to bite,

860
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,840
how this was hitting young couples
in my constituency...

861
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:58,840
with small children,
with the husband just over the limit
where they got a rebate,

862
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:01,560
perhaps only earning £5,000 a year.

863
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:07,600
How COULD that couple find a poll
tax bill between them of about £900?

864
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:09,040
It was a tragedy.

865
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,720
I think myself, had Mrs Thatcher
understood and been willing

866
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:19,000
to do something about it, that the
poll tax would have been withdrawn

867
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:23,960
and Mrs Thatcher would still be
Conservative party leader now.

868
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,360
For the first time in its history,
steel gates were erected

869
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:32,800
outside Downing Street to protect
against terrorist attack...

870
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:36,920
but the gates seem to emphasise the
Prime Minister's growing isolation.

871
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:40,680
Behind them she felt increasingly
alienated from her colleagues.

872
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:49,280
By that time, Margaret Thatcher
had already retreated
very much into her bunker.

873
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:54,960
She began to mistrust colleagues,
for one reason or another.

874
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:57,800
It meant that she was actually
removing herself,

875
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:00,440
not merely from her Cabinet,
which is dangerous enough,

876
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:04,920
and allowing a gulf of some kind
or other to emerge

877
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:10,120
but also from the party
and from the...

878
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,480
to some extent, getting out of touch
with the country, as a whole.

879
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:19,040
It may be that I was getting
a little bit irritated
that so many of my...

880
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:23,800
real initial, kind of,
six strong men and true

881
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:29,240
that I always knew that I had to
have were getting fewer and fewer.

882
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:33,560
Therefore I was having to bear
a much bigger burden

883
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:36,400
of seeing that the ship
went forward

884
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:41,880
in the direction in which we had
always wanted it to go.

885
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:46,760
So, maybe I was getting a little
bit testy because it was putting,

886
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:48,840
really, much more and more on me

887
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:52,080
to fulfil the purpose for which
we were elected.

888
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:57,480
Margaret Thatcher was
beset by problems.

889
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,360
The Community Charge,
however much she backed it,
was a political disaster.

890
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,240
The economy was seriously
overheating,

891
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:08,880
the bitter argument about
controlling inflation simmered on,

892
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:15,000
and, most gravely, a damaging split
was opening with her senior
colleagues over Europe.

893
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:19,240
As time passed,
many of her colleagues
began to think the unthinkable,

894
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:21,400
that she'd stayed in office
long enough

895
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,080
and that the time had come
to find a successor.

896
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:07,840
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