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For over 200 years,
London's financial districts

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have made Britain one of
the wealthiest nations on Earth.

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Britain's bankers have juggled the
country's fortunes, and, of course,

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in the process, made substantial
sums for themselves.

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Bankers!

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Nowadays
it's almost a term of abuse.

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Widely perceived
as overpaid, greedy,

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self-serving, amoral,
or actually dangerous,

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their reputation has fallen
below that of estate agents,

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or even journalists.

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What would the current boss
of Barclays give

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for the sort of coverage
his predecessor was getting in 1809

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when The Morning Chronicle wrote,

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"We cannot form to ourselves,
even in imagination,

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"the idea of a character
more perfect than David Barclay,

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"distinguished by his talent,
his integrity, his philanthropy,

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"his munificence.

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"No man was ever more active
than David Barclay,

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"in promoting whatever might
ameliorate the condition of man!"

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David Barclay was one
of a new breed of financiers

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at the start of a century
in which banking helped Britain

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build the richest empire
in the world.

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But whilst the fat cats of Victorian
finance achieved wealth on a scale

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never envisaged
by their predecessors,

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they were far from being,
as Peter Mandelson said he was,

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"Intensely relaxed about people
getting filthy rich."

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Rather their embarrassment
of riches led to intense
personal soul-searching

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and furious national debate
about the moral purpose of money

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and its ability to corrupt.

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For some extraordinary individuals,

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this led to an outburst
of generosity,

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an explosion of philanthropy.

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Difficult as it is to imagine it
now, this was the age
when bankers were good.

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At the start of the 19th century,

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the Industrial Revolution
was transforming Britain's economy.

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Manufacturing and commerce
needed credit and investment,

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so banks were springing up
across the country.

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From barely a dozen
outside London previously,

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by 1800 there were 370.

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There was the Barclay family,

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successful brewers,
who became bankers.

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The Lloyds family, who moved
from manufacturing iron to banking.

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And here in wealthy Norwich,

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the financial sector was
dominated by the Gurneys.

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Samuel Gurney was a banker
with three brothers,

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all bankers, too.

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And two of his sisters also chose
imaginatively to marry bankers.

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The family was
phenomenally successful -

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"as rich as the Gurneys"

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was contemporary shorthand
for seriously loaded.

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But all that money didn't help
the Gurneys sleep at night.

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Christians are told
that it's harder for a rich man
to enter the kingdom of heaven

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than for a camel to pass through
the eye of a needle.

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And the Gurneys were not just
Christians - they were Quakers.

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As Quakers, the Gurneys met to
worship in restrained quietness,

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without liturgy, priests or singing.

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Their puritan faith
valued modesty and simplicity,

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and they were taught to "beware
the deceitfulness of riches."

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Yet paradoxically, at the turn
of the 19th century,

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perhaps a quarter of English banks
had Quaker origins -

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not just the Gurneys,
but Barclays and Lloyds, too.

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Quakers were outsiders,
and like other non-Anglicans, were
barred from the professions,

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driving the ambitious into business.

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They were honest folk,
um, rather self-righteous,

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rather priggish many of them.

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They got up early,
they went to bed early,

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they didn't drink too much,

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and do all the things
which most normal people do,

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led very virtuous lives
and worked very hard.

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If you do all that
in the world where capitalism
is coming into growth,

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you're bound to end up
as quite well heeled, or indeed

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very rich indeed as most of
the Quakers that we know about did.

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The Gurneys were deeply conscious
of the irony

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that the qualities of diligence,
prudence and sobriety

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that their faith encouraged,

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also made them very good
at getting very rich,

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which their faith discouraged.

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One brother worried in his diary.

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"It is a very serious thing
to be so largely engaged

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"in the cares and transactions
of money matters.

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"It calls for a real watchfulness
against avarice."

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But for Samuel Gurney, banking could
also be a genuine force for good.

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When Lloyd Blankfein of Goldman
Sachs told the Sunday Times,

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not so long ago, that he and his
fellow investment bankers

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were "doing God's work",
everyone fell about laughing.

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He must be taking the mickey,
no-one could mean that seriously.

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But that's exactly
what Samuel Gurney believed.

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He felt that banking
was his religious duty.

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He wrote to his brother,
"The income it affords,

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"with its consequent influence
and power,

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"is by no means to be despised.

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"Is it not a talent to be turned
to good account?"

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So, to continue
the biblical parable,

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if you have a talent for banking,
you don't bury it in the ground,

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you make the money
and you spend the money well.

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To reconcile the conflict
between God and mammon,

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money and morals, the Gurneys
gave away substantial sums.

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Their do-gooding stretched
from poverty relief

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to the anti-slavery campaign,
but they became

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most closely associated with
the issue taken up by their sister.

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OK, ladies and gentlemen,
free money. I'm giving away money.

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Just chucking it away.
One simple question -

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who's the lady on the back
of the five-pound note?

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Erm, it's not Edith Cavell?

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Near.

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The Queen?
No, that's the lady on the front.

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Heroines. Boudicca?

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No. Is it Florence Nightingale?

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No. No, it's not Princess Diana!

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You're in Norwich,
she was from here...

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THEY GIGGLE

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It's not Julian of Norwich? No.
I don't know, I'm afraid.

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Sounds like a chocolate?
Sounds like a chocolate?

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I don't know. Cadbury.

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No, the other lot, Quakers.
Give me her name.

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Turkish delight.
Fry! Elizabeth Fry!

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Elizabeth Fry! You're brilliant!
Thank you! Thank you very much.

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Fantastic, five pounds,
thank you very much.

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Elizabeth Fry, nee Gurney,
was Samuel's big sister,

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who'd married another Quaker banker,
Joseph Fry.

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Elizabeth, like her brothers, had
a keen sense of the value of money.

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When her husband bought her
a caricature as a gift,

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she scolded him
for being a spendthrift.

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Poor Joseph - who always
was rather financially inept -

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responded by throwing
the present into the fire!

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Unhappy with the frivolity
of her well-to-do banking life,

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Elizabeth determined to use her
wealth to set the world to rights.

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She found her cause at Newgate,
London's most notorious prison,

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recreated here
with scrupulous realism by the BBC.

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You know what they call you,
don't you? Savages!

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They lock you in a cage,
they make you sleep on straw,

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they allow you to drink and gamble.

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Well, this is not the Lord's way,
and we must change it.

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Introducing education and paid work
for the prisoners,

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Fry determined to give them
the habits of order, sobriety
and industry

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which the Quakers believed
were the key to life,

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whether you were a banker
or a convict.

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Much to management's surprise,

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the reforms at Newgate
proved a success.

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Fry went on to become the most
famous prison reformer of her age.

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Her staunchest supporters
were her banking brothers,

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who not only backed her financially,

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but joined her on research trips
to prisons around Britain.

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But the Gurneys could never
leave their day jobs for long.

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These were heady times
to be in banking.

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The Gurneys' Quaker faith
not only taught them

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to be wary of worldly avarice,

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of storing up
their treasures on Earth,

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but also of the uncertainty
of riches themselves.

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Finding the dividing line between
speculative financial investment -

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which could be good for business -

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and gambling, the Devil's work,
was not always straightforward.

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In 1825, a boom in speculation
was followed by a stock market crash

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that caused one
of the most severe financial crises
Britain has ever known.

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Weeks of panic saw tumbling prices,
a run on the banks,

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and even the Bank of England
on the verge of collapse.

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Samuel Gurney shone in the crisis.

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With sound judgement and prudent
lending, he rescued many,

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earning himself the nickname,
the bankers' banker.

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But being prudent
didn't mean being sentimental.

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In the credit crunch that followed,
some 80 banks went bust,

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and Gurney did not save the bank run
by his brother-in-law, Joseph Fry.

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Elizabeth's husband
was declared bankrupt,

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a humiliating
experience for a Quaker.

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The Quakers judged failure
to pay back debt

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an unforgivable betrayal of trust.

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The bankrupt Joseph was thrown
out of the Society of Friends

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and Elizabeth's reputation
suffered too.

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This may seem harsh, but perhaps
there's something to be said

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for a morality
that valued personal integrity

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and prudence
with other people's money,

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and considered
financial recklessness, well,

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at the least,
something to be embarrassed about.

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These days,
when bankers mess up the economy,

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they seem to get off scot-free.

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Perhaps a bit of stern
Quaker shame wouldn't go amiss.

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Despite her own financial ruin
Elizabeth continued,

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aided by
her philanthropic brothers,

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to speak up for prisoners and
the poor for the rest of her life.

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Today, Newgate prison is long gone.

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On its site is the Old Bailey,

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the Central Criminal Court
of England and Wales.

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And Elizabeth Fry is still, however,
keeping an unflinching moral eye

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on all proceedings
at the heart of British justice.

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Elizabeth Fry and her brothers,

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both in their philanthropy
and their banking business,
demonstrated to others

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that it was possible to keep your
principles and your profitability,

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to create wealth and to use it
to create a better society.

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And that there was a duty
by those who had made good,

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to do good.

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Not all bankers were good,
of course.

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Indeed, many of them had reputations

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somewhat less glowing
than the Gurneys.

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Ebenezer Scrooge
is only the most famous

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of a host of morally-dubious
financiers in 19th century fiction.

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Dickens, Trollope, Thackeray and
Eliot all wrote of greedy bankers,

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clinging to their ill-gotten gains,
and lacking basic human charity.

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Charles Dickens' Little Dorrit
is a credit crunch story,

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which depicts the terrible trail
of misery caused by bad debt.

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The crooked financier Merdle
ends up killing himself

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when his speculations fail.

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Dickens' banker, Merdle,
is thought to be modelled

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on real-life banker
and MP John Sadleir,

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founder
of the Tipperary Joint Stock Bank.

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At first he was eminently
successful as a businessman,

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but he over-stretched himself
with reckless speculation
on the stock exchange.

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He then tried to solve his problems

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by raising money with forged deeds
and embezzled assets.

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When his swindles
were about to be exposed,

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and his bank was about to go bust,

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Sadleir went to Hampstead Heath
and committed suicide

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by drinking prussic acid
out of a silver cream jug.

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"I cannot live",
he wrote in a suicide note,

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"I have ruined too many.

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"I could not live
and see their agony."

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You see,
it's that Victorian shame again.

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No-one's suggesting
that those responsible
for the current financial crisis

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should do the equivalent
and all go and throw themselves off
tall buildings in Canary wharf.

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Well, not all of them obviously.

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But as a sign of repentance
it is fairly impressive.

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Certainly a lot more convincing
than giving yourself a bonus

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and saying, "It's time to move on."

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Today we rely less on disgrace
and prussic acid

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to keep the banking community
in check,

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and more on
the Financial Services Authority,

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located in a tall building
in Canary Wharf.

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Does it worry you
that banking at the moment

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has a very poor reputation?

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Well, I think
it's completely understandable,

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that the banking profession is not
held in high esteem at the moment,

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after what happened
in the financial crisis,

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and I think the banking industry,
the intelligent people in it,

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realise that they are going
to have to re-earn public trust.

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What we've got to have
is a financial system

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which performs its necessary
and important functions,

236
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:19,640
and where people in it

237
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,960
can feel proud
of doing useful activities.

238
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,000
To earnest Quakers like the Gurneys,

239
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,800
there were problems
with the very idea of banking,

240
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,680
can it be a good activity?

241
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,240
Well, I think it can,
it undoubtedly can.

242
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,920
I mean, first, I think
it's important to realise

243
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:39,840
it is very difficult to imagine

244
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:44,040
the transformation in the standard
of living of everybody in society,

245
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,040
which has occurred
over the last 200 years
since the Industrial Revolution,

246
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,800
without there being
a banking and financial system.

247
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,760
It's a fundamental part
of how you take savings,

248
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,800
surplus money from people
who have savings, and work out

249
00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,440
how to put it productively in a way
that produces investment and growth.

250
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,600
So as long as they were doing
the right sort of banking

251
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,280
they should have been OK
with their conscience.

252
00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,840
Do you think
it dulls the moral sensibility?

253
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,440
If you simply deal with something
which is completely immaterial,

254
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:18,160
right, money,
things up and down on a screen,

255
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:23,880
you can be in danger of not thinking
about the value what you're doing.

256
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:25,600
I think people need to realise

257
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,320
that the process of dealing with
things which are only, you know,

258
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,760
digits on the paper
or digits on the screen,

259
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,400
you know, unless you're careful,

260
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,680
can end up with a belief that money
is the measure of all things

261
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:45,160
rather than something, which it is
perfectly legitimate to want to have

262
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:50,800
as part of a wider life, which is
hopefully socially useful as well.

263
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,040
Plenty of people wanted to make
money back in the Victorian City,

264
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,840
which was increasingly seen
as a place of opportunity,

265
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,320
where even the humblest person
had a chance to succeed.

266
00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,880
Meet George Peabody,
the quintessential self-made man.

267
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,160
Born in relative poverty in America,

268
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,120
with very little formal education,

269
00:17:26,120 --> 00:17:28,840
his drive for success propelled him

270
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,240
from lowly apprentice
in a grocery store,

271
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,400
to king of the dry goods business.

272
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,760
When he moved to London in 1837

273
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,200
he was already
a man of serious substance.

274
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:44,080
He seemed to embody that
Victorian ideal of self help,

275
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,280
that anybody could make good,

276
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:51,160
provided they were
sufficiently hardworking,
thrifty, and determined.

277
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,640
It's rather a double-edged sword
though because it implies that

278
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,440
if you ARE still stuck in poverty,
it's your own fault,

279
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,000
so bah humbug to you.

280
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,200
Meanwhile Peabody worked so hard
and saved so much money

281
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,240
that some less generous people
thought he was nothing more
than a miser,

282
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,840
a sort of real-life Scrooge.

283
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,200
Despite his sizeable fortune
George took a packed lunch
to work every day,

284
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,440
and if he sent the office boy out
to buy him a bag of apples,

285
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,600
which cost one pence ha'penny,

286
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,440
he expected the change back
from tuppence.

287
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,160
He was living proof
that if you look after the pennies

288
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,640
the millions of pounds
take care of themselves.

289
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,280
In 1838 Peabody
opened up a counting house.

290
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,320
No longer just trading in dry goods
but financing that trade too,

291
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,440
he became what was known
as a merchant banker.

292
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,560
With no family, and no interests
other than making money,

293
00:18:55,560 --> 00:19:00,240
parsimonious Peabody
spent only 1% of his income.

294
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,400
Everyone assumed he would
take his millions to the grave,

295
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,480
but in 1862
he proved them all wrong.

296
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,240
These magnificent documents

297
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:17,080
are the Deeds of Trust by which
Peabody gave away his money.

298
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,360
This one is for £100,000,

299
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:22,760
this is £150,000,

300
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,000
that's £200,000.

301
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:27,840
They total half a million pounds,

302
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,120
which is a staggering
amount of money, then,

303
00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:33,720
and now would be worth
something like 50 times that.

304
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,280
Why did he do it?

305
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:37,600
We don't really know.

306
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,960
There's no evidence
that he was particularly religious.

307
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,320
It could be that he couldn't forget
the poverty of his past.

308
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,760
Or he could be trying to improve
British American relations,

309
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,400
the two countries were on
the edge of war at the time.

310
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:55,080
Perhaps he just wanted the glory
of being a great philanthropist.

311
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:59,560
I like to think he was visited
by ghosts in the middle
of the night like Scrooge,

312
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,280
and decided he had to stop hoarding
his money and start giving it away.

313
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,720
Peabody declared his aim was to,

314
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,320
"Ameliorate the condition
of the poor and needy of London".

315
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,560
The population explosion
in the capital

316
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,200
had created shockingly bad living
conditions

317
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,480
for the impoverished masses.

318
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,960
There was no sense in those
days that the government was obliged

319
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,400
to make sure that the poor
were properly housed.

320
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,640
The only thing you were obliged to
do was pick them out of the river
if they'd actually died,

321
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,080
pick them out of the gutter if there
had been a cholera epidemic.

322
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,600
And if they didn't work, thrash
them and put them in the poor house,

323
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,600
but the idea that you might
give them somewhere decent to live

324
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,560
didn't cross the minds of
government.

325
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,720
When the first Peabody Dwellings
opened in 1864

326
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,160
they must have seemed like Paradise
on earth.

327
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,960
They were designed around open
courtyards,

328
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,640
with their backs to the roads

329
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,360
in a deliberate attempt to make
tenants feel separate

330
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:02,280
from the slums outside.

331
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,000
They had unheard of luxuries

332
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,520
like laundry rooms,

333
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:11,920
free baths

334
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:13,480
and rubbish collection...

335
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,320
and best of all,
space for children to play.

336
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,560
No wonder Peabody properties became
so much in demand,

337
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,920
but only the right sort could apply.

338
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,960
Even in his charity, Peabody pursued
the ideals of self-help.

339
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,840
Differentiating
between the so-called "idle poor",
and the "industrious poor",

340
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,880
he wanted to help those who would
help themselves,

341
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,320
people who were hard working
and thrifty,

342
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,800
who were already trying to get out
of poverty, as he himself had done.

343
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,240
His homes were for those of
"good moral character"

344
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,600
who displayed this through "good
conduct as a member of society".

345
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,600
Oh, Hello.

346
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,360
Hello, Joan. I'm Ian.
Pleased to meet you.

347
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:07,680
'Joan Gregory is a Peabody resident
of excellent moral character.'

348
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:13,400
Joan how long have you lived on
the Peabody estate?

349
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,680
Well, I would say 84 years
because that's my age...
Never! Yes.

350
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:24,760
My grandfather come
to the estate around 1899 or 1900.

351
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,560
My mother was 1900

352
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:32,240
and she started off the children
born on the estate.

353
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:38,400
Cor...they haven't moved much.
R block, R block, R block...

354
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,280
F Block!
See that's round the other street!

355
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,080
I get the feeling everyone was
respectable.

356
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,080
Well, I think so because

357
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,800
the father had to have a job.

358
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,640
Otherwise he couldn't pay the rent,

359
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,280
and if you couldn't pay the rent you
couldn't live on the estate.

360
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,760
Do you think it was a good thing,
what Peabody did?

361
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,800
Setting up this special sort of
housing?

362
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,440
I think so.
He done good with his money.

363
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,480
Exactly! Do you think
they do good with their money now?

364
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,640
I don't know what would happen now
if he was in the same position

365
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,160
and still alive now.

366
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,120
He would probably be with all
the other bankers making profits

367
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:21,240
and getting big bonuses.

368
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:27,920
Impressive as it was,

369
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,600
Peabody's charity was
criticised from all sides.

370
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:37,320
Some said he should target
the really destitute who couldn't
afford 2/6d a week.

371
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,040
Meanwhile, the private landlords
were furious

372
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,040
because the Peabody estates offered
such extraordinary value,

373
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,200
undercutting their overpriced
and hideous slums.

374
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,920
But Peabody was a shrewd businessman

375
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,760
and by targeting
the labouring poor

376
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,080
who could afford to pay some rent,

377
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:03,320
the trust ensured that it
made enough money to perpetuate
itself indefinitely.

378
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,000
It was, quite literally, the gift
that kept on giving.

379
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,840
Peabody estates sprung up
rapidly across London,

380
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,200
housing 2,000 people by 1869.

381
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,880
30 years later it was
ten times that.

382
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,360
Now more than a century on,
there are 50,000 people

383
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:29,680
living in over 20,000
Peabody properties in the capital.

384
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,960
Tell me what his legacy is now.

385
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,640
I mean this was 150 years ago.
How much is left?

386
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,600
Well, we've got a surprising amount
of the Victorian property left

387
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,120
and it's really stood
the test of time.

388
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:47,600
But it's much more than that.

389
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,840
So many people's lives have been
touched by Peabody homes,

390
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,280
and really made good and have
used them as a stepping stone,

391
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,120
a springboard,
into a better way of life.

392
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:02,440
I note you use the word "made good",

393
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:07,440
Peabody would've liked that
cos he wanted people of good moral
character to live in his houses.

394
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,520
Yes, that's, that's absolutely
right, and it's something

395
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,800
we've tried to keep going
in the way that we operate now.

396
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,840
Is there philanthropy on a
Peabody scale, in Britain any more?

397
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,200
I think that isn't the case

398
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,520
and the Government has actually
suggested that,

399
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,320
there's a time for a cultural change
in the banking sector

400
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:36,760
to, er, encourage
them, bankers, to make donations
to charitable organisations,

401
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,160
but, frankly, we haven't seen it yet.
As yet... As yet!

402
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,200
You're still waiting!

403
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,680
Peabody had flourished at a time

404
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,840
when banking was helping to
transform Britain.

405
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,920
The nation's savings funded
railways, shipbuilding,

406
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,120
and the new telegraph cables which
kept the City in touch with faraway
markets.

407
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,600
Through the 19th century the Bank
of England gradually assumed

408
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,720
the responsibilities
of a central bank.

409
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,960
Several times a year
throngs of people would arrive there

410
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,400
for an occasion
celebrated in one of the grandest
rooms at the heart of the building.

411
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:31,160
This is George Elgar Hicks' painting
Dividend Day at the Bank of England.

412
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,840
The Victorians loved these genre
pictures of great national events

413
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,080
where they, the public,
were centre stage.

414
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,160
And it shows how widespread banking
and investment had become

415
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,640
that this picture
was such a huge hit

416
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,440
when it was shown at
the Royal Academy.

417
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,480
What we have here is the public,
the investors

418
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,520
going to get their twice yearly
interest on their investment.

419
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,400
You see the sign says Consols which
is consolidated debt.

420
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,880
The people of England were
financing the country

421
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,720
and being rewarded with a small,
3% sometimes a bit more,

422
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,760
but solid return on their money.

423
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:16,480
The amazing thing about the picture
is the cross section of people
there who are now investing.

424
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,720
Yes, there's a rich young lady
giving the eye to a banker in
a top hat,

425
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,200
but it's not just the rich.

426
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,200
In the corner there's someone
quite clearly up from the country

427
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,400
with his basket, scratching his head

428
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,520
not quite sure if he's got the right
return for his coupon,

429
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:37,400
old people invalids, children, town,
country, a widow, they're all there.

430
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,440
It's an amazing cross
section of middle Britain,

431
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,680
to demonstrate that we had become
a nation of shareholders.

432
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:56,680
By 1850 nearly 40% of all assets
held by British citizens were
financial.

433
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,160
But not all investments were as
reliable as Bank of England stock.

434
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,960
Speculating in the increasingly
complicated and volatile
money markets

435
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,800
was a dangerous business.

436
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,760
It was a jungle because it was
absolutely unregulated

437
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,800
and you only have to read
the novels of the period

438
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,680
to realise that whole human lives,
and in indeed whole human
communities,

439
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,120
can be wrecked overnight
by a rash investment in the City

440
00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:27,960
or by somebody speculating
in a way they shouldn't do.

441
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:33,280
Or by somebody gambling.
It was basically a gambling casino.

442
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,480
The intoxicating lure of easy
riches could lead to recklessness

443
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,960
from even the most level-headed.

444
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:45,240
In 1866, just a decade after
the risk-averse Samuel Gurney died,

445
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,600
the firm which he'd built up
so successfully.

446
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:53,560
Overend & Gurney
collapsed thanks to a Victorian
version of subprime debt.

447
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,760
It caused the last run on
a British bank

448
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,800
before 2007.

449
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,120
As Walter Bagehot, then
editor of the Economist, put it,

450
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,040
"The partners at Overend & Gurney
seem to have run their business

451
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,840
"in a manner so reckless and foolish

452
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,000
"that a child who had lent
money in the City of London

453
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,320
"would have lent it better."

454
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:20,360
Poor, trustworthy Samuel Gurney
must have been turning in his grave!

455
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,480
One bank that did stay rock solid
and reliable was Coutts.

456
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:45,960
Thomas Coutts had built his bank up

457
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,160
to be perhaps the most successful
private bank in the country,

458
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,240
able to count the royal family

459
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,160
and much of the landed
aristocracy among his customers.

460
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,640
Today, all visitors to the boardroom
pass through a room where

461
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,320
the most important members of the
family still hang on the walls.

462
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,880
This is the venerable Thomas Coutts

463
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,520
who had daughters but no male heir,
and scandalised his family,

464
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,960
not to mention the rest of
society,

465
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,720
when he decided at the age of 80
to marry the young, beautiful,

466
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,880
dark-haired actress Harriet Mellon,

467
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,560
who was less than half his age.

468
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,360
On his death he bequeathed to
her his entire fortune

469
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,240
and his half share of the bank.

470
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,680
You can imagine how popular
she was with the Coutts daughters!

471
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,200
Anyway on her death the entire
family gathered to hear

472
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:50,960
the will read out.

473
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,680
You can imagine the scene.
It was like something
from a Victorian melodrama.

474
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,080
There were the daughters, there were
ten surviving grandchildren,

475
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,840
and none of them knew how the family
fortune would be distributed.

476
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,160
The lawyers read out the will
and dropped the bombshell.

477
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,600
Harriet had left the lot,
everything,

478
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,280
the vast pile to the youngest
grandchild

479
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,280
Angela Burdett, age 23.

480
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,680
All young Angela had to do
was take the name Coutts,

481
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,480
and promise not to marry
a foreigner.

482
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,560
Her romantic story made her
an overnight celebrity.

483
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,800
The newspapers came up with wild
statistics to describe

484
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,040
the size of her fortune.

485
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,800
It would take 107 men to
carry it in gold,

486
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,320
over ten weeks to count
it in sovereigns,

487
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,600
and if it was laid out in
crown pieces,

488
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,720
the line would be over
113 miles long.

489
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,960
She became the new darling of high
society,

490
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:55,960
with her lavish parties,

491
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,560
fine clothes, impressive jewellery,
love of small dogs -

492
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,080
she even had a stalker who was
imprisoned -

493
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,920
she could have been
a sort of Paris Hilton of her day.

494
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,200
But Miss Burdett Coutts was neither
particularly attractive nor terribly

495
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:16,080
vivacious, though she did have,
obviously, other attractions...

496
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:17,520
millions of them!

497
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,600
Eligible suitors
queued up to propose marriage

498
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,360
and press rumours linked her with
everyone from the future
Napoleon III

499
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,640
to the Bishop of Oxford.

500
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,080
But Miss Burdett Coutts was
fiercely independent,

501
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,480
wary of gold diggers,
and had other plans for her future.

502
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:41,200
Angela's vast wealth gave her far
more power than other women of
her time.

503
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,520
She was free to turn
philanthropy into a career.

504
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:49,800
She turned for advice to that great
observer of Victorian society,

505
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,440
Charles Dickens.

506
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,680
Dickens divided
the charitable into two types.

507
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,760
One, people who did a little
and made a great deal of noise.

508
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:04,440
The other, people who did a great
deal and made no noise at all.

509
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,040
His novels frequently
ridicule blind, misplaced,

510
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:09,840
or patronising do-gooding,

511
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,480
creating characters like Mrs Jellyby
in Bleak House,

512
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:18,640
who is so concerned
about the plight of natives
in faraway Borrioboola-Gha

513
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,040
that she
totally neglects her own children.

514
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,760
But Dickens considered
Miss Burdett Coutts to be

515
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,280
"the noblest spirit one
could ever know".

516
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,840
He didn't put her in a novel,
he dedicated one to her.

517
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,800
Using the wealth made from banking,

518
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,840
Burdett Coutts gave away four
times as much as Peabody.

519
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,920
Indeed she contributed more
millions, to more causes,

520
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,520
than anyone before her,
until she became
a kind of British institution.

521
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,760
Burdett-Coutts poured money in every
direction where she saw need

522
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,600
new schools, night schools,
technical schools, sewing schools,

523
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,880
training for teachers
in the schools,

524
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,120
new hospitals, training for nurses
in the hospitals,

525
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,960
libraries, scientific foundations,
training for policemen,

526
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,200
temperance societies to stop people
drinking,

527
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,000
drinking fountains to get them
drinking water,

528
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,600
soup kitchens for the poor,

529
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,680
famine relief for Ireland, help
for Muslim refugees, churches,

530
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,760
bible classes,

531
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,560
bishoprics in the colonies,

532
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,000
the fishing industry,
bee keeping,

533
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,720
better conditions for flower girls,
better conditions for boot blacks,

534
00:34:37,720 --> 00:34:41,720
free milk for children, the campaign
against cruelty to children,

535
00:34:41,720 --> 00:34:43,720
the campaign against cruelty
to animals,

536
00:34:43,720 --> 00:34:47,000
scholarship, art, cancer relief.

537
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,360
No cause was too small...

538
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:54,120
Angela Burdett Coutts was the first
patron of the British goat society

539
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,680
and she donated funds to
make it possible

540
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,760
and she was a very key player
in the formative years.

541
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,640
So why did she think goats
were such a good idea?

542
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,080
Because in Victorian times, they
didn't have refrigerators and so on,

543
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:08,600
so people needed milk.

544
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,920
You couldn't buy milk and keep it,
you needed a fresh supply of milk,

545
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,720
so obviously for the average
household, there was no way

546
00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:19,080
that they could afford to keep
a cow but they could keep a goat

547
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,680
quite easily
and the goat would go in the garden

548
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,080
and eat all sorts of wide variety
of food

549
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,520
and would produce fresh milk
for the children.

550
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,600
So they're perfect for the poor?

551
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,480
Absolutely perfect.

552
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,040
Now, is the goat community
in need of help nowadays?

553
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:35,680
Could you use some bankers?

554
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,080
Yes, we could definitely use
some bankers.

555
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,880
The British Goat Society still does
what it can to develop the goat,

556
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:46,280
improve the goat, publicise the goat
and of course, all that costs money.

557
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,440
The Burdett Coutts of our time!

558
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,360
We need them! We need them.

559
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:51,760
I hope they're listening.

560
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:52,760
Yes!

561
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:53,800
GOAT BLEATS

562
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,480
Hello, goat.

563
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,320
Got any views on the role of charity
as against the nanny state?

564
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:03,360
GOAT BLEATS

565
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,080
In recognition of all that
Burdett Coutts had contributed,

566
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,120
in 1871 Queen Victoria
made her a Baroness,

567
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,760
an extraordinary honour then for a
woman to be given in her own right.

568
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,840
Punch even dedicated a poem to her.

569
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,040
It's called In Angelae Honorem,
which is a pun

570
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,560
on the words "angel" and "Angela",

571
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,080
which they obviously thought
was very amusing.

572
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,440
"The Queen has made her noble,
but ere that rank was given,

573
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,960
"She had donned robe and coronet
of the peerage made in Heaven.

574
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,960
"Baptised in purer honour
than from earthly fountain flows,

575
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,840
"Raised to a prouder Upper House
than our proud island knows."

576
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,680
And it gets worse,
if you can believe that.

577
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,520
"If we needs must find her symbol,
then carve and set on high

578
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,120
"A heavily-laden camel going
through the needle's eye."

579
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,680
So Angela is so marvellous
that the parable of the rich man

580
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,920
and the eye of the needle
no longer applies.

581
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,840
But it does show you the esteem
in which she was held

582
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:09,400
by the general public.

583
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:14,040
And Punch, the satirical magazine,
makes no criticism of her at all.

584
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,560
But Angela once wrote

585
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,040
that her wealth had brought her
little real happiness.

586
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:24,960
She knew there was more to life.

587
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,880
In February 1881, the Baroness,
now in her late 60s,

588
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,120
gathered a few close friends
and family here,

589
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:35,760
at Christ Church in Mayfair.

590
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,240
They'd come to witness her marriage

591
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:43,320
to her secretary, who was nearly
40 years her junior.

592
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,200
The Burdett Coutts' wedding was
the biggest scandal of the time.

593
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,240
The partners at the bank
were aghast,

594
00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:52,880
and the gossip columnists
had a field day.

595
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,960
The former Prime Minister, Benjamin
Disraeli, wrote to Queen Victoria,

596
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,920
saying Lady Burdett's marriage
is the greatest scrape

597
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:02,840
since the war in Afghanistan.

598
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,360
The Queen herself declared it
"the madness of a silly old woman".

599
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,320
And the Archbishop of Canterbury
suggested that rather than
marrying him,

600
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,800
Burdett Coutts should adopt him.

601
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,960
It wasn't just that her chosen
husband was young

602
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,480
and possibly a fortune hunter.

603
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,960
It was worse than that.
He was an American.

604
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,240
By marrying a foreigner, she had
broken the terms of her inheritance,

605
00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:34,080
so at a stroke,
Angela Burdett Coutts sacrificed
the majority of her wealth for love.

606
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:41,080
The Baroness' charitable giving
continued, though now much limited,

607
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,640
but apparently
she was finally happy.

608
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,280
The great thing about money is that
you're the lord of your own life,

609
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,160
or lady of your own life
in this case.

610
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,640
And I think that with all these
philanthropists,

611
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,000
very deep inside them actually

612
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,680
is a desire not to just share
their great wealth

613
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,920
but to get rid of it all,
cos it's a kind of a burden,

614
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:04,760
and it's a kind of filth.

615
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,760
Philanthropy was now becoming
fashionable.

616
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,240
Victorians discovered
that charity balls, like this one,

617
00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:26,240
were a popular and effective way
to encourage the rich to give.

618
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:30,520
In the mid-1880s, The Times claimed
that the income of London charities

619
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,320
was greater than the governments
of several European countries.

620
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,920
Yet some social commentators worried

621
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,960
that the rich giving money
wasn't enough.

622
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,200
There was something intrinsically
wrong with the free market,

623
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,600
which wasn't making society fairer,
but more unjust and materialistic.

624
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:58,200
One fierce objector was John Ruskin,
the great Victorian critic,

625
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:03,040
whose essays Unto This Last attacked
greed and unbridled capitalism.

626
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,960
Ruskin would have recognised
and shared contemporary concerns

627
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,040
about bankers' excessive pay
and bonuses.

628
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,520
His book was an attack
on that desire for riches,

629
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,160
which ignores the wealth
of the wider community.

630
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,560
In fact, he defined two types
of wealth.

631
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,200
Wealth, which makes the world
a better place,

632
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,800
and illth, which is created
for no purpose,

633
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,240
and makes the world a worse place.

634
00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:31,440
Well-th and Ill-th - you see?

635
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,600
Ruskin argued that the purpose
of commerce needed to be about

636
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,840
more than just adding
shareholder value.

637
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,720
He wrote, "It is no more the
merchant's function to get profit

638
00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:50,680
"for himself than it is a
clergyman's function to get
his stipend".

639
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:55,960
For Ruskin, the purpose of business
is to provide for the nation.

640
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,840
Ruskin thought a society
would be genuinely rich

641
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,120
when its citizens were happy,
healthy and good.

642
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,480
As he famously put it -
"There is no wealth but life."

643
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,240
What was so original about Ruskin,

644
00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:18,640
was that he realised that all
this money that the Victorians had,

645
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,480
far from being a blessing,
was a curse,

646
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:28,120
and the belching smoke and fumes
and poison coming out of
Victorian factories,

647
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,000
for Ruskin were the storm clouds of
the 19th century

648
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,280
and they weren't just physical
clouds wrecking the atmosphere,

649
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,520
they were moral clouds of poison.

650
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,560
Ruskin's ideas weren't too popular
with economists.

651
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:46,840
One reviewer felt he'd been preached
to death by a mad governess.

652
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:52,520
But 150 years on, we're again
wrestling with the same questions.

653
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,560
Surrounded by temples to Mammon,
St Paul's Cathedral,

654
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:03,520
has become the recent unexpected
epicentre of this debate.

655
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:08,440
A clash of values has stirred the
nation, challenged the Church,

656
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,720
and would cost its canon,
Dr Giles Fraser, his job,

657
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:12,840
shortly after he spoke to me.

658
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,840
I think the Church should not
condemn making money per se.

659
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,360
It gives people jobs,
it creates energy for the economy

660
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,040
and there's nothing wrong with that.

661
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:28,120
I think the Church has been too
snooty about money for centuries.

662
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,960
So I think that that side of
things is fine, but,

663
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,640
the one thing the Church
has always said is that,

664
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,840
the love of money
is the root of all evil.

665
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:39,560
Not money per se,
but the love of money.

666
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,720
Ruskin said at the time that a
lot of the creation of money was,

667
00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:45,920
he called it illth,
rather than wealth,

668
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,800
but it's the same thing,
he said it was socially useless.

669
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,080
Do you think there are ways of
commerce here that are useless?

670
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,920
There are those who say
that all forms of activity,

671
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,960
even if you're buying a Porsche
and wasting it in champagne bars,

672
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:03,040
is generating jobs for people who
make Porsches and who sell
champagne,

673
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,080
so to that extent,
there is an argument.

674
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,040
But I would say for the person
who's doing all of that,

675
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,320
it's actually corrupting.

676
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,080
It's bad for you.

677
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:17,400
I think people don't get the extent
to which it is sort of corrosive
of the soul.

678
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,120
There are many more
important things in life

679
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:24,080
and that that level of wealth
can actually distance you from

680
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,560
other people and distance you
from the great things in life.

681
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,120
You can't live in a bubble, which is
just the bubble of the rich,

682
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,160
and forgetting the world around you.

683
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,160
The City has to have much greater
sense of responsibility

684
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,400
for the world around it.

685
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,040
Do you think bankers are sitting
there, feeling guilty?

686
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:44,640
No.

687
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,160
No. I had a feeling they weren't.

688
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,920
I don't see them kneeling
in penitence!

689
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,400
Did they ever get the message
about how annoyed people were

690
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:54,960
about their behaviour?

691
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,440
Well, they feel beaten up by it.

692
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,720
They feel a bit "woe is me"
about it,

693
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:03,640
but whether that's genuinely
transformative, I'm not sure.

694
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,080
And actually I don't think that
the beating up of bankers

695
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,520
always helps because I think
what they need is,

696
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,080
though I'm happy enough to beat
up the bankers,

697
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,880
but I think what they need
is another model,

698
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,760
a model of what banking could be,

699
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,280
that is socially useful, that they
can aspire to, they can grow into,

700
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,960
and I think part of the problem
with our society

701
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:30,600
is we haven't given them a model
of what socially-responsible
banking could look like,

702
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,360
which is what the Victorians
precisely can do.

703
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,360
By the start of the 20th century,
Britain was in many ways

704
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:47,280
unutterably different to the country
inhabited by the Gurneys.

705
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:52,160
London was now the capital of the
biggest, richest empire
in the world,

706
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:56,000
and the bankers that had made it so,
had become the wealthiest,

707
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,840
most powerful,
establishment figures of their age.

708
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:04,040
No longer social outsiders,
they were the new aristocracy

709
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,720
and lived the life of the landed
gentry on their country estates.

710
00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:13,200
Even - unthinkable a century
earlier - if they were Jewish.

711
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,920
Living here at Tring Park
was the head of the richest

712
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,160
and most famous banking
family of all Europe -

713
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,640
Nathaniel Rothschild,
known as Natty to his friends.

714
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:36,400
Despite his family pedigree,
Natty wasn't a natural financier.

715
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,920
He'd had to leave Cambridge without
taking his degree exams

716
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,720
for fear he'd fail maths.

717
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:46,760
But that didn't stop him
running the world's biggest bank,

718
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,800
or being made Lord Rothschild,
the first non-Christian ever

719
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,160
to reach such giddy heights
in British society.

720
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:02,120
Natty loved playing lord of the
manor, the grand country gent,

721
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,000
hosting lavish hunting parties,

722
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,880
in the manner of an old-fashioned,
blue-blooded aristocrat.

723
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:11,840
And why not? In many ways,
that's exactly what he was.

724
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:16,760
As part of the Rothschild banking
dynasty, he had inherited wealth,

725
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,400
status and power
to match anyone in Britain.

726
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:26,960
As a banking aristocrat,

727
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:31,240
Lord Rothschild had a rather
feudal sense of duty.

728
00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:34,920
An unusually generous landlord,
he provided new cottages

729
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,120
and free medical treatment
for his estate employees in Tring.

730
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,120
And at the bank,
he created a department

731
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:47,040
solely responsible for charity - an
early example of corporate giving.

732
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,080
Not that everyone was always
grateful.

733
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,800
The journalist Claud Cockburn,
who grew up in Tring,

734
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,280
tells the story of Lord Rothschild's
birthday, when he announced

735
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,920
that he would give a shilling to
every child in the town of Tring.

736
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,920
All they had to do was turn up
at ten o'clock that morning

737
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:07,240
outside the manor.

738
00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:08,800
Very generous, it seems.

739
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,240
But Lord Rothschild had not reckoned
with the enterprising people

740
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:16,320
of Tring, who decided that perhaps
they needed a few more children,

741
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,400
so they imported them
from neighbouring villages -

742
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,800
cousins, friends, anyone.

743
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:23,560
So the town was full
the night before

744
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:28,520
of children staying over in barns
and outhouses ready for the big day.

745
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,360
When the day dawned,
there was Lord Rothschild,

746
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,360
he'd set up trestle tables
piled high with silver shillings,

747
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,840
ready to give to the children.

748
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,120
The gates opened and this flood of
children came to get
their shillings,

749
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,360
and the ones who were
first in the queue,

750
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,600
took the shilling, ran round the
back and then came forward again.

751
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,520
So there was a constant queue
of children being given

752
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,080
these shillings, and of course
they began to run out.

753
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,760
And Lord Rothschild had to send
out to Aylesbury, to Watford,

754
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,000
even to London,
to get more shillings.

755
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,760
Even that wasn't good enough
and eventually the pile disappeared.

756
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:06,080
One father claimed that that day his
children had made him the equivalent

757
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:10,640
of two and a half weeks' wages, with
two bottles of whisky thrown in.

758
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:12,280
There's gratitude for you!

759
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,920
Rothschild's wider charity
was on a stupendous scale,

760
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,560
particularly to the thousands
of Jewish refugees

761
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,480
who'd been coming to Britain
since the 1880s

762
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,840
to escape persecution in Russia.

763
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,480
It wasn't just that he was
sympathetic to their plight.

764
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:33,480
To him, it was a religious
obligation.

765
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,360
This synagogue,
Victorian London's finest,

766
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,600
was founded by Natty's brother.

767
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,520
Lord Rothschild
was a very religious Jew,

768
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:51,000
with a strong sense of
noblesse or richesse oblige.

769
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,200
And it's a fundamental
principle of Judaism

770
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,240
that all Jews are responsible
for one another,

771
00:48:56,240 --> 00:49:00,920
and he realised here were people
arriving, not knowing the language,

772
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,800
many of them very poor indeed,
and he felt an enormous patrician

773
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:10,240
sense of responsibility,
which is really a Jewish imperative.

774
00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:12,320
The amount of money he gave,

775
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:17,520
there was something like £15,000
a year then for a Jewish school,

776
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:19,800
there were youth clubs
and housing projects.

777
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,840
This is vast charity.

778
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:26,920
Is that necessary?
Is that compulsory?

779
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,160
Absolute minimum 10%,

780
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,880
but if you are wealthy, no limits.

781
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,360
The key word in Judaism is
"tzedakah",

782
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:42,960
which you can't easily translate
into English because it means both
charity and justice.

783
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:44,800
In English, something can't be both.

784
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,440
If I give you £1,000 because
I owe it to you, that's justice.

785
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,920
If I don't owe it to you but I think
you need it, that's charity,

786
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,720
so it's either one or other.
In Judaism, it's both.

787
00:49:55,720 --> 00:49:59,440
And therefore for us,
tzedakah, which we'd see as charity,

788
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,640
is not something we give out of
the generosity of our heart

789
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,080
it's something we give
because we must.

790
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,600
Rothschild used his money
every way he could,

791
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,720
even refusing to do business
with Russia

792
00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:16,240
while persecution of the Jews
continued there.

793
00:50:16,240 --> 00:50:20,600
But there were real limits
to what he and others could do.

794
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,000
So this was the conundrum.

795
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,640
In Natty Rothschild,
we have a very wealthy man

796
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:30,120
who was genuinely trying to direct
his wealth towards the public good.

797
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,880
And not just his own wealth,
that of the bank too.

798
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,160
No-one could accuse him
of not being philanthropic.

799
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,880
And this do-gooding spread
throughout the rest of society.

800
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:45,120
A survey in the 1890s showed that
the average British household

801
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,000
was spending 10%
of its income on charitable giving.

802
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:54,240
That's the single largest item
of expenditure apart from food.

803
00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:56,960
But despite all this generosity,

804
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,560
the sad fact remained
that poverty and distress

805
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:04,840
was still all around and in some
cases seemed to be getting worse.

806
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:09,760
However extensive, however
strategic, however well-directed,

807
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:13,920
philanthropy on its own
was never going to be enough.

808
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,800
It was increasingly clear

809
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,280
that though banking
had made Britain great

810
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,760
and the rich
extraordinarily wealthy,

811
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:30,000
it was not a progressive engine
of social change.

812
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,960
In fact, the country was facing
extremes of destitution

813
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:40,560
that no amount of thrift,
self-help or do-gooding could solve.

814
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,200
Some people
began to think the unthinkable -

815
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:49,680
that for a just society, the State
itself would have to provide.

816
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:01,320
In 1906, the new Liberal Government
was elected with the radical agenda

817
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:05,280
to "lift the shadow of the workhouse
from the homes of the poor".

818
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:06,600
They introduced reforms

819
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,240
that laid the foundations
for the Welfare State -

820
00:52:09,240 --> 00:52:13,480
free school meals, National
Insurance, old age pensions.

821
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,640
To pay for reform, in 1909,
the Chancellor, Lloyd George,

822
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:28,120
announced what became
known as the People's Budget.

823
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:32,400
It was the first British budget
ever with the express purpose

824
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:36,400
of using tax to redistribute
wealth from the rich to the poor.

825
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,560
For bankers like Rothschild,
however philanthropic,

826
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:42,840
this was heresy.

827
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:51,280
Lord Rothschild was absolutely
opposed to any increase in taxation.

828
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,080
He believed the rich
should do their duty to the poor,

829
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,000
but that this should be voluntary,

830
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:57,880
a matter of private conscience,

831
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,520
and not something to be taken over
by the State.

832
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:02,080
What's more, he argued,

833
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:06,120
capital should be free from taxation
in order to accumulate,

834
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:10,080
thus stimulating economic growth
and benefiting everyone.

835
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,560
It is exactly the same argument
used by bankers today

836
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,680
to resist State intervention.

837
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,120
Lord Rothschild was up in arms
about the People's Budget.

838
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,720
He called a big protest meeting,
and personally delivered

839
00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:26,040
a petition of complaint
from the City to Westminster.

840
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,680
Lord Rothschild was a political
heavyweight, a big beast...

841
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,480
but so was Lloyd George.

842
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:39,960
The Chancellor hit back
with a typical oratorical tirade.

843
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,920
"I think we are having
too much of Lord Rothschild.

844
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,920
"You are not have estate duties
or a super-tax. Why?

845
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,760
"Because Lord Rothschild
has signed a petition

846
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,000
"on behalf of the bankers
saying he will not stand for it.

847
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,360
"You are not to have a tax
on reversions.

848
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,800
"Why? Because Lord Rothschild
says it will not do.

849
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,120
"You ought not to have
old age pensions.

850
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,760
"Why? Because Lord Rothschild
said it could not be done.

851
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:05,840
"Now, really, I would like to know,

852
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:09,160
"is Lord Rothschild
the dictator of this country?

853
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,480
"Are we to have
all the ways of reforms,

854
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:15,800
"both social and financial,
blocked simply by a notice board -

855
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,000
"'No thoroughfare.
By order of Lord Rothschild'?"

856
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:28,200
It was a huge political struggle,
but Natty had met his match.

857
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,480
Lloyd George eventually
got his budget through Parliament.

858
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:44,680
And what of Lord Rothschild?

859
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,000
Even he the came round eventually,

860
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,000
in the extreme
national crisis of 1914.

861
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:56,160
"How are we pay for the war effort?"
asked Lloyd George.

862
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,920
"Tax the rich!" came the unlikely
reply from Lord Rothschild.

863
00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:01,400
"And tax them heavily!"

864
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,320
And that's been more or less
the policy ever since.

865
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,480
The 20th century
was, overall, a great leveller.

866
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,120
With increased tax,

867
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:20,840
the Welfare State
largely took over from philanthropy.

868
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,840
Do-gooding was nationalised!

869
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,480
So what should a rich banker today
do with all that spare money

870
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,080
left after tax?

871
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,960
Not far from Tring
is Waddesdon Manor,

872
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:38,840
built by Natty's cousin,
Ferdinand de Rothschild.

873
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:46,320
If not happiness,
it's amazing what money can buy!

874
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:54,400
Now owned by the National Trust,

875
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,560
it still benefits from another
philanthropic financier -

876
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:02,800
Natty's great-grandson, Jacob,
the current Lord Rothschild.

877
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,120
You still appear to be tithing.

878
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,080
You're still giving 10% away,

879
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:11,320
which is quite a lot more than
a lot of people. Why is that?

880
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,920
I'm not a hugely extravagant liver.

881
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:15,840
I can't eat more than
three meals a day.

882
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:18,400
I don't want to live
in a particularly big house.

883
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:23,720
I love looking after a particularly
big house at Waddesdon Manor.

884
00:56:23,720 --> 00:56:25,280
But, um, so why not?

885
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:32,840
Is it possible
to make a huge amount of money

886
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:34,520
and still be good?

887
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:39,360
It's difficult for many people to
liberate themselves of their money.

888
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,200
I think that can be a problem

889
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,640
because it can become an obsessive
pursuit, an addiction.

890
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:46,480
But, um, if you look at Bill Gates -

891
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,920
I don't know if he's
the richest man in the world

892
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,600
or the second
or third richest man in the world -

893
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:53,800
or similarly, Warren Buffett...

894
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,280
In a sense they're like fishermen
who put the fish back, aren't they?

895
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:59,520
I mean,
almost everything they've made,

896
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:05,320
probably over 90% of what they've
made, they've returned to the world.

897
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,480
Do you think there comes a point,

898
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,360
and maybe we're at it now,

899
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:15,120
where the State can't do any more,
can't afford to do any more

900
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:19,400
and the wealthy have to put
their hands deeper in their pockets?

901
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,640
Well, I think if you put yourself
in the position of the State...

902
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:27,480
I mean, the State
has to withdraw money.

903
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:29,000
It's got to spend less.

904
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,200
And, therefore, who's going to
make up the difference?

905
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,440
You have to encourage
the philanthropic sector. Why not?

906
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:39,720
The current anger about the City...
all that talk of,

907
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:43,400
"Oh, these people are socially
useless. What are we doing here?"

908
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:44,600
What can the bankers,

909
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:48,320
what can the City do
to assuage that anger?

910
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:49,880
What can they do?

911
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,560
Well, they can behave well
and give back more.

912
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:00,200
I'm sure that there'd be a lot less
banker bashing today,

913
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:02,120
if they followed the example of

914
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:05,480
the best of their 19th century
predecessors.

915
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:09,360
Of course, the Gurney family,
Peabody, Burdett-Coutts,

916
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:11,560
Lord Rothschild were rooted in
their time.

917
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:13,520
But they wrestled with
their consciences

918
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:15,760
and they got out their chequebooks.

919
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,120
Maybe societies get the bankers
they deserve.

920
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,720
Somehow, we accepted that greed
was good

921
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:27,120
and that probity, conscience,
philanthropy, do-gooding,

922
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:30,880
were boring, old-fashioned,
Victorian values.

923
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,400
Perhaps we were wrong.

924
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:57,680
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925
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,440
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