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A headline on the front page
of The Sunday Telegraph:
"Mosley appeals to churches".

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Nice to think he appeals to somebody.

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Satire is different to humour.

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It's edgier, it's tougher.

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It's more daring, more adventurous.

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David, you're so marvellously witty.
Shut up, David.

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Satire only works if you think,
"Oh, that's right. That's true."

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In that case, I'm just going
to have to get back to you. I don't
think there should be limits.

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I think if you can get it funny
enough, you can get near anything.

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PHONE RINGS

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Hello?

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If it's funny
and if it's true and if it's sharp,
then it's satire at its best.

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Hello, good evening and welcome to
Frost On Satire.

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Some moments there from the last 50
years of television political satire.

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But in all this time, has that satire
ever had a real effect?

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Can shows such as Spitting Image,
Rory Bremner or Saturday Night Live
change the political landscape?

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What ultimately is the power
of satire on TV?

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Well, to find out I'm going to
look at some of what I consider

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to be landmark shows of the past
50 years, both here and in America.

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And my journey starts
where it all began,

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in Studio 2
at BBC TV Centre in West London.

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The date
was 24th November 1962,

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and the show was...

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# That was the week that was

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# The bunnies are here, no doubt. #

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If you're worried about whether
we can really

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look after all
these missiles we're kindly being
loaned by the United States,

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you may be reassured by this direct
quotation from an Admiralty circular.

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"It is necessary for technical
reasons that these warheads

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"should be stored with the top
at the bottom,

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"and the bottom at the top.

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"In order that there may be no doubt
which is the bottom

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"for storage purposes, it will be
seen that the bottom of each head

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"has been labelled
with the word 'Top'."

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Here, for the first time ever,
was a satirical series that tackled
the issues of the day head on.

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I tell you, it's a real man's life
in the regular army.

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Never a dull moment.

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Why don't you join?

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Your country needs you...

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..to take my place.

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'The idea was to create a show
that should,

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'in the words of the then Director
General of the BBC, prick
the pomposity of public figures.'

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Our other bouquet for the week
goes to the Government

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for its sensitive handling
of the half a million unemployed.

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Only yesterday, Mr Maudling received
a delegation of the unemployed,

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and after talking to them for
10 minutes, he got up and said,

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"Well, I don't know about you,
but I've got work to do."

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'It was groundbreaking
on so many levels.

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'In its late night Saturday slot,

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'TW3 would discuss, dissect and
indeed deride the news makers
of the week

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'with startlingly direct language.

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'And no subject was taboo.'

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# Mississippi is the state
you've got to choose

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# Where we hate all the darkies
and the Catholics and the Jews

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# Where we welcome any man

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# If he's white and strong
and belongs to the Ku Klux Klan. #

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From race relations in America,
to rising illegitimacy
rates in Britain.

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# Don't you weep, my little baby
Cos you haven't got a dad

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# Go to sleep, my little baby

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# Things aren't really quite so bad

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# There's no reason any longer
Why you ought to feel so blue

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# The world is full of bastards
Just like you. #

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As perhaps a rather sad sign
of the times, the News of the World
is running a competition

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which is headed, "Picture yourself
in this gay summer dress", followed
by a coupon which begins here

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by asking you to state your hip size,
and then goes on to enquire whether
you are Miss, Mrs or Mr.

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The show also dared challenge
the establishment like never before,

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aimed with a potent mix of humour,

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irreverence and some
ferocious debate.

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When you grow older, you won't talk
so much and you'll listen more.

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I hope I won't be so bigoted, Sir
Cyril, as those you stand for.

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Look,
first of all I'm not a socialist.

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But the socialist
gospel has always been

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that all wealth comes from work, and
you cannot have wealth without work.

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And satire,
and this folly for which you stand,

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would leave our country,

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if it were the only thing we'd got,

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leave us hungry.

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Wealth comes from work.

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Sir Cyril, Hunger Through Satire
has never been my slogan, but, er...
LAUGHTER

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Heated debate would occasionally
produce reactions from the audience.

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It was not a review,
it was a vicious attack.

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It may well have been. But would
you mind going back to your seat?

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There's just one
tiny thing to be done.

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'But outbursts like this didn't deter
the team from taking pot shots

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'at even the most senior
political figures.'

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This has also been the week of Dean
Acheson's sensational outburst,

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when he said....

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Having lost her empire,

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Britain is not quite as important

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in the world as she used to be.

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She cannot remain

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totally independent.

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Acheson's wild words have
caused an international furore.

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What does Acheson think, Jack?

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It's Harold here.

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Harold MacMillan. M-A-C...

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Good night.

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APPLAUSE

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With an unflinching attitude to the
status quo, our goal was simply
to change the world a joke at a time.

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And not all the victims of our humour
were amused by it.

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Complaints would pour in,
questions were asked in the Commons,
the papers had a field day.

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Despite this, the show ran for two
thrillingly successful seasons.

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That Was The Week That Was
really helped me to get
involved in politics.

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When you started,

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I became,
as a young doctor, an avid fan.

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And I rocked with laugher
and thoroughly enjoyed
the whole bloody thing.

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I think the spoofing of politicians
appealed to me, and still does.

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Even when I'm on
the receiving end of it.

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And I've been quite often
on the receiving end of it!

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But with a general election
on the way, lampooning politicians
made the BBC nervous.

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And sadly, for those who loved it,
TW3 was cancelled.

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So we took the show to America.

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'Live from New York.'

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# That was the week that was
Panama's flag is flown... #

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TW3 paved the way

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for the young to
criticise those in power

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And this new-found confidence
to challenge authority was embraced
by TV execs in the States.

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The American TW3 began
its weekly run in January 1964.

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For those of you who wrote in that
you hated our pilot show, wait until
you see this one!

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'Like the UK version, the show poked
fun at current political leaders.'

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A spokesman for the Republicans said
today, "With the candidacy of Senator
Barry Goldwater,

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"the Republican Party
is on the way back.

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"And who knows?
One day it may even go forwards."

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'But it was all too much for the US
networks, and after the second season
they pulled the plug.'

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That's it really.

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That WAS That Was The Week That Was,
that was.

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Good night.

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# That was the week that was
It's over, so bye-bye! #

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Was it really
because the establishment thought
TV satire was a serious threat?

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Well, whether they feared TW3 or not,
the seeds for challenging authority
had been sown.

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It was in the mid-'70s
when young Americans found

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their voice again after Watergate
and the Vietnam War had highlighted
the failings of those in power.

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And now for my second
announcement.

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Live from New York,
it's Saturday Night!

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The bright young things
at Saturday Night, soon to be
Saturday Night Live,

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created a show that
skewered American society

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and its key political figures.

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We've just arrived at the NBC's
Studio 8H here in Manhattan.

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The very same studio 8H where we
actually did That Was The Week That
Was American version back in 1964.

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Nowadays the tradition continues
with Saturday Night Live,

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which is alive and well, flourishing
and kicking after 35 years.

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And so is its creator and producer,
Lorne Michaels.

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Does satire have to make you laugh?
Here it does, yes. With an audience.
Yeah.

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There can be serious
satire, I think, but not if you
got an audience of 500 people.

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Yes, and serious comes after.
First, you have to get the laugh.

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I'm going to bring out a special
guest we've got with us tonight.

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00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,880
This is Jimmy Carter's
campaign manager.

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00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,200
You described it once as
a "satirical watchdog of power".

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Right? Did I? My God, I must have
been in a very serious period.

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An eloquent moment that was.

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Principally,
the job is to hold an audience.

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And to do it in an intelligent and
hopefully thought-provoking way.

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You certainly don't put
"thought-provoking" on the marquee.

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In the early days, which was,
you know, er...

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everyone under 30 understood
the show immediately.

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The kind of music we were putting
on didn't appear on television
at that time,

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the kind of topics, the sense
of humour we were doing.

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KNOCK ON DOOR
Come in.

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Good afternoon, Mr President.

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Good afternoon, Dr Speck.

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00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,320
I just want to say that these
sessions have been great for me,

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and I'm feeling much
more clear-headed already.

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00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,720
I'm very glad to hear that,
Mr President.

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00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:15,600
If you'd just like to lie down,
we can get on with the session.
Wonderful. Thank you.

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Oh, boy.

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00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,000
What do you think
is the most powerful,

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single item you have produced
over the last 35 years?

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It's so hard to narrow it down
because they're different times.

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I think in the '70s when we began,
we followed Watergate, and, er...

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00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,800
and distrust of authority and
opposition to authority
was in the air.

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00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,520
And now,
Weekend Update with Chevy Chase.

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00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:50,120
Weekend Update was a direct
descendant of That Was
The Week That Was,

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00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:57,640
and so we came on with somehow
a right to be able to question.

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President Nixon
was formally pardoned

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for all Watergate crimes today

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00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,560
by the People's Republic of China.

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00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,880
Honouring the ailing former leader,
the Chinese have named a new dish

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00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,120
after Mr Nixon
called Sweet And Sour Dick.

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00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,560
I was a writer
predominantly for 12 years out here,

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00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:22,200
Lorne came looking for writers

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00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:28,240
for this new show
and we met and immediately got on.

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00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:35,040
He was at the Chateau Marmont,
a famous old hotel
here in Los Angeles.

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00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,880
I spent the day there
in an interview with him
as he interviewed others,

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00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,480
so it was almost understood that
I would come and write that stuff.

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And then you transmogrified
into being the performer
with Weekend Update.

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00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:53,960
I never thought that would happen.
Lorne pulled that out at the
very last minute before the show.

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He said, "Chevy, get up
and do something," and I did some
news thing that I had written

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and I was used to doing that.

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00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,200
He immediately accepted it and
said we have got to use that.

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00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:10,000
He came up with this
Weekend Update concept, and
that is where all that stuff began.

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00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:17,080
And I said, "That's Sir David
Frost," I don't think it was
Sir at the point. That came later.

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00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:22,080
Overworked and exhausted from his
flight, the President mistakenly
bumped his head on the face

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00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,240
of a little girl who was presenting
him with flowers at the airport.

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00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:31,320
Smiling, but alert, secret service
agents seized the child
and wrestled her to the ground.

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00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:38,760
I think the essence of what
I wanted to do at the time,
and what has been carried on

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00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,840
as a tradition on that show,
Saturday Night Live at least,

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00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,720
the essence of it is to try and
get one guy out and another guy in.

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00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:52,280
We are all democratic liberals,
so that is what we were doing.

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00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,480
And in this case it was
kind of an easy shot.

200
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,320
Gerald Ford was
falling all over the place.

201
00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,320
A very sweet man, and I liked
him very much and I felt bad.

202
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,880
You got to know him later,
didn't you? Yes, I did.

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00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:04,760
PHONE RINGS

204
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,840
Hello? Hello?

205
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,960
The other thing that was really
original about that was that you...

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00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:19,400
you obviously aped his gestures and
all of that, but you didn't try
to be Rich Little,

207
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,480
you didn't
go for the exact voice.

208
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,080
No, I have no talent in that area.

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00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,160
So, you were just you,

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00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,800
but being Gerald Ford. Yes.

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00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,440
Bang your head and say,
"No problem."

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00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:40,960
The difference between then and what
has been done ever since
is that they get impressionists,

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00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:46,160
and if the writing is good and the
impression is good, it's working.

214
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,800
I can't do an impression
any more than Steve Martin.

215
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:52,920
We can't even do accents,
guys like us.

216
00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,400
We're just lucky to be alive.

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00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:04,720
So as SNL set the goal stand
for satire in the States,
in late '70s Britain,

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00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:10,000
it takes a huge shift in politics for
a major satire show to come along.

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00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:16,280
Gentlemen, pray be upstanding
for your most gracious Sovereign,
the Queen.

220
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,040
Good evening, boys.

221
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,000
Good evening, Your Majesty.

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00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,520
There were parodies,
there were politicians,

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00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,120
and most important
of all, there were puppets.

224
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:34,360
Spitting Image went on air
on the 26th February 1984

225
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,280
and ran on ITV for 12 years.

226
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:43,120
For the millions who regularly
tuned into the show, Sunday nights
were never the same again.

227
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,480
In my day, we were always very
shy of calling ourselves satirists,

228
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,400
because you'd done that

229
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:58,160
and you were proper grown-up people
that we adulated at school.

230
00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:05,040
The kind of things you did on
TW3, and the kind of thing Bernard
Levin did rather brilliantly too,

231
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,920
was really thoughtful,
properly researched pieces

232
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,440
and in many ways Spitting Image
is a much sort of simpler thing.

233
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:19,960
What we kind of learnt was that
you could call a person corrupt,
incompetent or useless in any way,

234
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,360
but if you said
they had funny, little piggy
eyes, they get really cross.

235
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:30,320
What do we call it when people
go around stealing other
people's property? You?

236
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,760
A free-market economy? Rubbish.

237
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,760
Following in the footsteps
of Gillray and Hogarth,

238
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:42,920
Spitting Image brought the nation's
politicians to life
with a grotesque realism.

239
00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:44,920
Right, dismissed.

240
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:50,360
I used to have to go
to the IBA every week and report
on why these jokes were funny.

241
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:59,600
"John," said so and so, in a
five-man meeting, "now you say here,

242
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:04,160
"it's a Bernard Levin puppet,
I understand, rather topical,

243
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:08,040
"and somebody says to him,
'Why did you become a journalist?'

244
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,880
"and he says, 'I think it was
because I was circumcised
with a pencil sharpener.'

245
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,120
"Now, do you find that amusing,
John?

246
00:17:15,120 --> 00:17:17,320
"Do you find that amusing?"

247
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:21,040
I said, "Well, we think it's
quite funny." "OK, well,
moving on now..."

248
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,920
Then they would go through all
the jokes trying to work out why or
whether they were funny,

249
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:31,400
and there was one particular thing
where I had to resort
to saying I was a satirist

250
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:38,920
when there was a famous sketch when
Norman Tebbit's puppet was being
interviewed about the unemployed

251
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,440
and he said that
if the unemployed are so hungry
why don't they eat themselves?

252
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,480
The chap at the IBA said, "Now,
John, this really has gone too far -

253
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,680
"Norman Tebbit eating
the unemployed."

254
00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:02,640
And I said, "Well, you see, sir,
it's a nod in the direction of
Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal,

255
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,240
"where he proposed that the Irish
unemployed ate their own babies."

256
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,560
And he said, "Oh, satire!"
And I said, "Yes,
that's right. Thank you, sir."

257
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,240
"Oh, well, if it's Jonathan Swift,
that's fine. Absolutely fine."

258
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,640
So we would quite often
hide behind you and your ilk,

259
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,600
whereas actually we were just doing
people with big noses really.

260
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,080
The extraordinary thing about
Spitting Image

261
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,240
is that it had essentially
a new medium,

262
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:28,880
which was political puppets,

263
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:34,520
and you added, at the time, an
extraordinary series of people doing
voices, people like Harry Enfield,

264
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,680
doing the voices, Chris Barrie,
extraordinary talent.

265
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,280
Rory Bremner, doing voices.

266
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:47,520
A group of puppeteers
from the Henson workshops,
who'd done amazing things already.

267
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,360
So you had all these, and then you
had some writers in,

268
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:53,200
people like myself and Nick Newman,
the cartoonist,

269
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,400
brought in from a print tradition

270
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,320
as well as the sketch one.

271
00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:04,160
And you shoved them all together
at a time when the country was
at its most divisive.

272
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,280
I'm sorry, I couldn't
get the hairspray.

273
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,120
Say that again?
Couldn't get their hairspray.

274
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:10,400
And on this bit.

275
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,120
Hairspray. That'll do nicely.

276
00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:15,400
Once it got going,

277
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,640
it used to this terrible power
that satire shows can have

278
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,040
for actually influencing
the way an individual is seen.

279
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:31,000
There are two basic ways. You can
either write satire about the
issues or about the personalities.

280
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:36,280
And, for obvious reasons, Spitting
Image tended to be focused

281
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,320
on the personalities in politics,
the actual people.

282
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:44,600
And they would often pin
an identifiable tag on somebody.

283
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:49,760
And because more people watch
TV comedy than Today In Parliament,

284
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:51,960
those tags really stuck.

285
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:57,840
So Norman Tebbit as this
leather-jacketed thug, or Heseltine
sweeping his hair around,

286
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,600
those images really
went into people's heads.

287
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:06,360
I apologise for any possibility
that I may have misled the House

288
00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:09,800
by giving the impression
that I was a competent minister

289
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,080
who knew what he was talking about.

290
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,800
Of course, some politicians
didn't like the way they
were represented at all.

291
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,560
And I am completely useless.

292
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,600
I was actually accosted
in your garden by Diana Britton,

293
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:30,000
as she became, but was then
Leon Britton's girlfriend, who said,

294
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,920
"Look, Leon's only got three warts
on his face and you given him five."

295
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:39,400
And Leon popped out of the bush and
said, "Yes, look, you see, one, two,
three. It's totally unfair."

296
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:45,360
And David Steel famously used to
say, "I'm half an inch taller than
Neil Kinnock. It's totally unfair.

297
00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:49,000
"I'm portrayed as a tiny little man
in David Owen's pocket."

298
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:57,320
I think it's to David Steel's
credit that it didn't appear to be

299
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,800
a major issue,
but, underneath, it must have been.

300
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,680
He would have less than human nature
not to be upset about it.

301
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:09,560
It was not a true picture
of our relationship,
but it had enough truth

302
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:15,440
to be able to wildly
exaggerate it and therefore make it
appealing and attractive for satire.

303
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:21,320
And it was a curse really, that this
was being exaggerated out there.

304
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,560
It was not helpful, but you had
to admit it was quite funny.

305
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,000
David, you're so marvellously witty.

306
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,240
Shut up, David.

307
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,320
Hurt me, you hunky thing.

308
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:36,760
It's a funny thing about satirical
representational caricature,

309
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,000
that it's the strong characters
who simply appear stronger.

310
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,880
So all of the big beasts,
Heseltine, Mrs Thatcher,

311
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:51,320
Tebbit, the more you mocked them for
being mace-wielding, axe murderers,

312
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,040
the bigger they became.

313
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:57,720
And the weedy ones who spent all
their time moaning and complaining
about how unfair it was

314
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,920
and how they didn't have a very big
nose just seemed smaller
and smaller.

315
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,120
I'm sorry, Nigel, it won't do.

316
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:06,000
It must be changed.

317
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,800
You know what to do.

318
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:13,280
All right, I give in.

319
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,080
Tebbit said, "I was one of the few
politicians who liked my puppet."

320
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:21,880
He loved the leather jacket,
he loved the bruiser image and
thought it was very funny,

321
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,880
because, as you know, he has
a great sense of humour, Tebbit -
very funny man.

322
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,360
He said to me, "You know, John,
the great thing about politics in
those days,

323
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:32,400
"we all knew how much it mattered.

324
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,680
"We had to take some
very difficult decisions.

325
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:41,040
"I'll tell you now, we made some
bad mistakes, but a lot of
the stuff we had to do it."

326
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,800
And that was kind of what was fun
about television in the '80s,

327
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,920
and exciting and risky,
was that people minded.

328
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,280
They really, really cared.

329
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,000
The government cared and we cared
that they had to be called
to account,

330
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,080
and in some cases mocked openly.

331
00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:03,320
I have a theory about satire in
that it functions best in eras
when politics is very polarised.

332
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,520
When everyone's
in the middle agreeing,
it's much harder for satire

333
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:12,240
to identify what the issues are and
find the contrasting personalities.

334
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:17,680
But if you look at
the Thatcher era in Britain,
you had the parties way apart.

335
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,400
We had riots on the streets.

336
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,880
People weren't politely disagreeing
about policy, they were
actually out there,

337
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:29,080
and that gave a set of very
disparate, larger-than-life people
in a Punch and Judy show.

338
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,560
I think that power
has to be checked.

339
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:37,600
You need cabinets to check it,
you need legislature checking
politicians' power,

340
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,520
and one of the ways to check them
is humour and satire.

341
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,320
And satire is different to humour.

342
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:51,200
It's edgier, tougher, it's more
daring, more adventurous.

343
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:56,040
I certainly used to take my job
very seriously and responsibly

344
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:01,760
and say that we needed to get the
facts as right as we could, and then
fire arrows at people

345
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:07,600
in our callow, juvenile judgment
deserved a bit of a thrashing.

346
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:13,920
So, satire can change the world
or not? Not in my experience. I think
satire changes perceptions,

347
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,920
but I don't
think it changes the actuality.

348
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:23,560
When I left Spitting Image after the
first four years of it, I certainly
felt we had achieved nothing

349
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:29,440
but possibly made the government
slightly more powerful
than we had found it.

350
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,840
In the late '80s,
Spitting Image was continuing to
enjoy great success,

351
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,520
but its creators were frustrated.

352
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:42,440
The entire direction of politics
had not yet been transformed.

353
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,360
Then, in 1989, with the politicians
of the day still providing satirists
with rich pickings,

354
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:50,360
the BBC commissioned
its own satire show

355
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:54,320
with a bright young star
who provided some of the voices
for Spitting Image.

356
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,840
AS HATTERSLEY: I don't want to spoil
your fun, Neil, but you're crap.

357
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,120
If you want votes, it's
your act you need to tidy up.

358
00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:08,000
I saw Thatcher's routine last week,
and she's got them eating out of her
hand. Get yourself a strategy.

359
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,040
"Oh, bloody hell."
"That'll do for a start."

360
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,680
Early on, I started out doing,
you know,

361
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,760
cricket commentators, the Richie
Benauds, the Bill McLarens,

362
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,440
who's no longer with us,
but, of course, a fond memory.

363
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:26,520
And I used to love all that,
because I was a fan, and then
increasingly working with John Wells

364
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,760
at the beginning of the '90s,
and then with John Bird
and John Fortune,

365
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:36,360
I began to feel I should
be doing more with the voices and I
became more interested politically.

366
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:39,840
If it's true, as they say, that
you can't mix sport and politics,

367
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,560
why have the government got so
many substitutes on the front bench?

368
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,640
Like Spitting Image,
Bremner set about the political
figures of the day.

369
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:54,960
But this time not only was it
important to get the voice right,
but the whole impersonation accurate.

370
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,840
AS RICHIE BENAUD: 1979, of course,
the year when the England
opener Thatcher went in.

371
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,920
She followed on, and on, and on -

372
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,720
rather reminded me
of the great Geoffrey Boycott.

373
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:11,640
She's out there for a whole match,
grinds down the opposition
and then runs everyone out.

374
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,000
I don't rehearse in front of
a mirror a lot of the time.

375
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,080
Most impressionists will tell you
what you have in your head

376
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,560
is a film that's running
as you're talking.

377
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,800
There's a film of the character
you are being, and you can
see in your mind's eye.

378
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,840
It's like you're watching a film
in your mind's eye to which
you're providing the soundtrack,

379
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,200
and that's how it works.

380
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:37,200
And you can hear yourself being
the voice, the film that is in your
mind, and that all projects out.

381
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:42,240
And hopefully it all works
instinctively and it comes out
through your face naturally.

382
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,520
I almost went into you
for a moment there.

383
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:52,000
AS DAVID FROST: You feel yourself
doing those, those facial gestures

384
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,840
like you're doing now.

385
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,040
And it all becomes part
of the characterisation.

386
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,800
Thank you very much, Rory Bremner.

387
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,800
AMERICAN ACCENT:
Maggie, we were a team.

388
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,720
A touch of class.
I kissed your hand.

389
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,040
I kissed yours too.

390
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:13,040
Ah, yes, I remember it well.

391
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,880
The most satisfying times are when
you can actually nail a politician

392
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:24,920
or a character with a line that
you hope forever more
when people see that person,

393
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,800
they will have in their mind
the caricature, so if you
can reduce that to one line.

394
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,400
With John Major, it was,
"I'm still here.

395
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,400
"They said it couldn't be done.

396
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,600
"It wasn't. They said I wasn't
up to the job, I'm not."

397
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:45,440
And, of course, life imitating
art, as it were, I remember watching
a press conference he did one day.

398
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:50,720
And he was asked if he would
resign or not, and Major stood
there and said, "I'm still here."

399
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:57,240
So the satirical line had become had
become attached to him permanently.

400
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:02,520
Of all the targets you have
done over the years, so far,
who or what has been the most fun?

401
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,520
I enjoyed being Bill Clinton
because he had the licence
to be a bit naughty.

402
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,360
You could flirt with the interviewer
and you could say,

403
00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:14,280
"Well, when I was in government
a lot of great things
happened under me,

404
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,920
"but let's not go into that."
You have that.

405
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,480
They were, from a personal
point of view, were fun to do.

406
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:27,680
With Blair, it was
the kind of openness and sibilance
and those S's and the rhythm,

407
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,960
which was very much in his speeches
which we caricatured,
as "tea for two, of course.

408
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,960
"Of course, tea for two,
but also two for tea.

409
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,920
"I like apple pie, unless of
course you don't like apple pie."

410
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,960
We struggled for a couple of years
when Blair came in to think,
"Where is it?

411
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,160
"What's at the heart
of this government?

412
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,240
That is when we invented the
Blair/Campbell sketches.

413
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,080
The fly on the wall, Andy Dunn as
Alastair Campbell, me as Tony Blair.

414
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,040
Well, you messed up this time,
didn't you?

415
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,600
May 3rd, go for it, go for May 3rd.

416
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,200
It's all geared up for you,
May 3rd, May 3rd, May 3rd.

417
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,680
I think, "OK,
maybe May 3rd's a good idea."

418
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,280
Suddenly it all changes,
all up in the air and I'm
left with egg on my arse.

419
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,600
Hey, just back off.
It's not the press's fault, is it?

420
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:18,440
It's the public. They're the ones
who went ahead and change their
minds without telling anyone.

421
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,400
Yeah, the public.
Don't get me started on them.
The public moan, moan, moan.

422
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:29,640
They were the ones who thought
we might achieve something, who
thought we might make a difference.

423
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,800
They were the ones with
the ambition. It wasn't me.

424
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,960
I always think with things there
is a comic line and a true line.

425
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,360
And the most satisfying comedy you
ever do is when the comic line

426
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,840
and the true line are going the same
direction and are side by side.

427
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,520
People are laughing,
but laughing at the truth.

428
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:54,200
That is why when it is just
gratuitous for the sake of getting
a laugh, it's not so satisfying.

429
00:29:54,200 --> 00:30:01,520
If it hits the target, if it's
funny, and if it's true and if it's
sharp, then it's satire at its best.

430
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,680
Rory Bremner is very political
these days, and at times,

431
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:12,680
when the Blair sort of thing
was at its height

432
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,640
and everybody thought Blair
was great, at that time,

433
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:20,200
Rory Bremner spotted first
the flaws in Blair

434
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:25,120
and was quite lethal, really,
in penetrating it.

435
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,720
And I think it was a great
service, actually.

436
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,920
There was no really serious
opposition,

437
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,960
and I think that
was extremely important.

438
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,120
We just need, you know,
we need a message.

439
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:37,880
Something we haven't said before.

440
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,400
All right, something we have said
before but they won't remember.

441
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:51,520
How much do you think you can trace
the clear impact that it's had?

442
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:57,400
I think reading Campbell's
Diaries afterwards and seeing what
has come out of various inquiries,

443
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:03,320
like the Chilcot Inquiry,
a lot of it now, you realise that
we weren't that far off the mark.

444
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:09,600
It was funny, but more importantly
it just got under their guard
a little bit,

445
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,320
and I think it slightly...

446
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:17,920
It felt like it annoyed them,
and subsequently

447
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,920
it's felt like we were on to
something.

448
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,400
So, for satire to work,
it needs targets.

449
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,880
And the more those targets divide
opinion, the better it works.

450
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:34,240
And when those targets were lost, as
they were when, say, Margaret
Thatcher left power,

451
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,200
satire tends to run out of steam,
as it did in Britain.

452
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:44,920
In America, however, their
counterparts were about to enter
a new golden age.

453
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:51,840
Other people may drop like flies in
this administration, but I want
to be around for a long time -

454
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:57,880
on the job,
making the tough decisions, 24/7,
that's 24 hours a week...

455
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,040
..seven months a year.

456
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,840
I wasn't really known
in our cast for being, you know,

457
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,000
someone who had that
as part of my repertoire.

458
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:21,080
I had written a sketch called Janet
Reno's Dance Party, so I would
perform as Janet Reno,

459
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,720
the former Attorney-General,
which was just me in a dress,

460
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,520
which anyone can do.
You could do that, David.

461
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,360
Yes, I'll let you go first. OK.

462
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,840
So I wasn't really known
for that sort of thing.

463
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,720
There was a member of our cast,
Darrell Hammond,

464
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,160
who was kind of like the go-to guy
for all these impersonations,

465
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:46,280
and he had an excellent Al Gore
waiting to go.

466
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:51,160
Lorne Michaels, the producer
of Saturday Night Live said,
"Do you want to do Bush?"

467
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,720
Just this kind of like, "You in the
room here, you want to do Bush?"

468
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,240
I said, "Sure, I'll try it."
And that's kind of how it started.

469
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:05,040
What made Bush such a good target,
as it were?

470
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:11,320
Well, I think you had someone
who misspoke frequently.

471
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,520
Yeah. Um, he, er...

472
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:19,760
and also this kind of...essentially
what was a fraternity boy

473
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,240
who had kind of
become President, really.

474
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,920
It's a guy who is
kind of petulant at times,

475
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:33,400
a little bit of "my way or the
highway" approach to his policy.

476
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:40,680
I really think it was the petulance
and all stuff that made him
so kind of fascinating to me.

477
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,360
Some of the lines that
are attributed to him now

478
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,680
were probably actually
created by you, for instance.

479
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,880
I don't know whether
you did this one,

480
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:57,360
but I'm sure the one about "the
French don't even have a word
for entrepreneur",

481
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,160
I'm sure he never said that,
but somebody said it,
and it was so convincing.

482
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,320
I think he did. Do you? Yeah.

483
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:10,520
I will instead ask each candidate
to sum up in a single word
the best argument for his candidacy.

484
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:11,560
Governor Bush?

485
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,960
Strategery.

486
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:23,800
The one word or phrase that we
were able to kind of contribute
to the lexicon was "strategery".

487
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,840
We found out later they would
use that in their meetings. "Let's
have a strategery meeting."

488
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,400
Er, but yes, it was very interesting

489
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:37,560
in the sense that I was either
accused or applauded by some people

490
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:44,600
for helping him win the election,
the first election.

491
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:50,080
Because people said they
found my portrayal to make him,
in a weird way, kind of likeable,

492
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:57,040
and er, which, I don't know, I never
put much credence in it either way.

493
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:02,280
So, if Ferrell's impersonation did
really help Bush win an election,

494
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,600
it can be argued then that
satire is directly influential,

495
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,600
though not necessarily
in the way it was intended.

496
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:16,200
In George Bush, American
comics and commentators
had their perfect satirical quarry.

497
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:21,800
But when George W was about
to leave office, it seemed
there was no obvious replacement.

498
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:27,760
And then John McCain picked an
unknown Senator as his running mate
for the US Presidential elections.

499
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:33,000
Governor Sarah Palin
of the great State of Alaska!

500
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:38,080
That was the most asinine thing
I've ever seen, McCain doing that.

501
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,280
And she is just ripe,
ready to go at.

502
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,200
And I don't think she knows it,
and I think she's enjoying herself,

503
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,240
but she's about as bright as
an egg-timer.

504
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:50,800
I don't know what that's all about.

505
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,520
You've cited Alaska's
proximity to Russia

506
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,160
as part of your foreign
policy experience.

507
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,200
What did you mean by that?

508
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,960
That Alaska has a very
narrow maritime border

509
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,280
between a foreign country, Russia,

510
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:09,160
and on our other side, the land
boundary that we have with Canada.

511
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,360
It's funny that a comment
like that was kind of made to,

512
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,680
char... I don't know.

513
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:20,080
From this Sarah Palin interview
with CBS's Katie Couric,

514
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:28,120
ex-Saturday Night Liver Tina Fey
was able to draw much of her material
from what Palin had actually said.

515
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:34,000
On foreign policy,
I want to give you one more chance

516
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:41,840
to explain your claim that you have
foreign policy experience based
on Alaska's proximity to Russia.

517
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,040
What did you mean by that?

518
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:51,040
Well, Alaska and Russia are only
separated by a narrow
maritime border.

519
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,120
You've got Alaska here,
and this right here is water,
and up there's Russia.

520
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,200
So we keep an eye on them.

521
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,520
LAUGHTER

522
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,080
And how do you do that exactly?

523
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,640
Every morning when Alaskans wake up,
one of the first things they do is

524
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,200
look outside to see if there
any Russians hanging around.

525
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,000
If there are, you've got to go
up to them and ask,
"What are you doing here?"

526
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,040
And if they can give you
a good reason, or they can't,

527
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:26,160
it's our responsibility to say, you
know, "Shoo! Get back over there."

528
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,200
Shown just a few weeks
before the election,

529
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,240
despite its late night slot,

530
00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:38,040
at its peak it's been estimated that
over 17 million people were watching
Tina Fey as Sarah Palin.

531
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,160
So was Sarah Palin your
first serious impersonation...

532
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:42,800
or funny, rather than serious.

533
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,120
My first and only.

534
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:49,360
I had been on Saturday Night Live
as a writer for a long time.

535
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,920
The head writer..
The head writer eventually.

536
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,920
And I did the news segment
that they call Weekend Update,

537
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,040
so we did a lot of political jokes,

538
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,520
but I was never really
in the cast in the way that
the other performers were.

539
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,600
I was rarely ever even in sketches,
let alone called upon
to do an impression,

540
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:12,600
and I think people forgot that that
wasn't really anything I had
ever attempted before.

541
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,160
So when you agreed to come back
and do Sarah Palin,

542
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:23,040
did you expect it to be as big, as
huge a hit as it was, or was that
a surprise to you?

543
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,280
It was a big surprise. She came on
the scene, really, in August -

544
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:32,080
she was chosen as McCain's
running mate in August,

545
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,400
and I started getting e-mails
saying, "You should play her."

546
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:40,720
People, one, forgot that I didn't
work there any more, and two, forgot
that I didn't have those skills.

547
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:47,200
I think she was just such
a compelling media character
immediately.

548
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:54,080
She's so telegenic and so likeable,
so polarising pretty quickly that
people wanted to see her portrayed.

549
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:59,360
And so I sort of thought
that it became clear that I would
have to try and do it at least once.

550
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:05,080
I thought, "This will be terrible
and we'll do it once and everybody
will say it was terrible."

551
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:10,520
In that area, you're looking for one
or two outstanding characteristics.

552
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,200
What did you seize on first of all?

553
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:19,680
Well, she has, er... Former Governor
Palin has a very distinct accent,

554
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,920
and she had a very folksy way
of speaking.

555
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:30,240
She would drop her Gs
at the end of words and was
very heartfelt and she smiled a lot.

556
00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:37,000
What lessons have you learned
from Iraq and how specifically
would you spread democracy abroad?

557
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:42,640
Specifically, we would make every
effort possible to spread democracy
abroad to those who want it.

558
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,920
Yes, but specifically,
what would you do?

559
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:49,960
LAUGHTER

560
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,520
Katie, I'd like to use
one of my lifelines.

561
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,760
LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

562
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,080
I'm sorry? I want to phone a friend.

563
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,000
You don't have any lifelines.

564
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,160
Well, in that case, I'm just gonna
have to get back to ya!

565
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,920
Do you think that
slightly damaged her,

566
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:31,040
or did it build her up into
being now a vaguely potential
Presidential nominee?

567
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,200
They made the
decision not to allow her

568
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,240
out there much with the press,

569
00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:40,320
and so there had been
the one interview,

570
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:46,400
the Katie Couric interview, and then
Tina pretty much defined her,

571
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,520
because we were doing it more
frequently than she was speaking.

572
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:56,960
Our version became more vivid and
real, and I think that we helped
define her in a certain way.

573
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,040
I believe global warming
is caused by man.

574
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,040
And I believe it's just
God hugging us closer.

575
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,960
I don't agree with
the Bush doctrine.

576
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,680
I don't know what that is.

577
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,960
Do you think you do, in terms
of satire, and I think one can,

578
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,480
have an effect? Satire can
have a real effect.

579
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:25,440
Yes, I think every four years
Saturday Night Live

580
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:31,640
finds itself in a spotlight
that it doesn't really have either
before or after.

581
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:36,000
This last election cycle
was no different with Tina Fey

582
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,840
playing Sarah Palin,

583
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:44,320
and I actually came on for one of
the shows that they did,
and we did a sketch

584
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,560
with myself and Darrell
playing McCain.

585
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,960
A vote for John McCain is a vote
for George W Bush.

586
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,320
You're welcome.

587
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,880
I want to be there for you,
John, for the next eight years.

588
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,880
The next 16 years!

589
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,800
And later all the news shows said

590
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,080
that summed it up perfectly.

591
00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:14,360
I think that show

592
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,680
can kind of shape people's views.

593
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:25,400
Tina Fey's impersonation is seen by
many as the pinnacle of modern-day
television satire in the US.

594
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,000
And as for its political impact,
according to the New York Times,

595
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:34,720
the sketch "undermined Palin's
plausibility as a candidate".

596
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:39,800
Satire now makes big media stars.
It's got that power.

597
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:45,160
And not just those performing it,
but also the politicians who
are in the firing line as well.

598
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:56,040
Alongside these headline-grabbing
impressionists, we've seen a return
to the roots of TV satire

599
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:02,920
and shows like TW3, where the focus
was on razor-sharp wit rather than
outstanding impersonation.

600
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:12,000
I think television wanted
to have an equivalent to...

601
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,920
There's a long-running
radio news quiz in this country,

602
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:20,240
and it wanted to try and recreate
that in a mainstream televisual way.

603
00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:25,680
And what it wanted to do was
pair up essentially myself, who was
more considered as a journalist,

604
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,680
with Paul Merton, who was
a great stand-up, an improviser.

605
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:34,320
And the idea was to put
these two different sorts of comedy

606
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,480
into one framework
and see whether it would work.

607
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,720
Keep your nose out of Ulster.

608
00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:42,720
Clinton, who is the new
President of the United States,

609
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:45,760
has said he is going to solve
the problems of Ulster,

610
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,400
and people are very upset

611
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,280
that the Americans are
telling us how to run our country,

612
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,080
because that's the Germans' job.

613
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:58,960
And the experiment paid off,
as the show's been on our screens
for two decades.

614
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,640
The odd thing
Have I Got News For You does

615
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,400
is have real politicians
coming onto a show whose format

616
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,760
they cannot master,
and then getting exposed by it.

617
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,000
I mean, that is rather different.

618
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:16,360
Al Fayed is a liar, and we have a
detailed report saying he's a liar,

619
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,680
but in this case he wasn't lying.

620
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,120
Which happens sometimes.
Even liars tell the truth...Neil.

621
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,680
AUDIENCE: Ooh!

622
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,560
LAUGHTER

623
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,640
Just before we go, we
have to give you your fees.

624
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:37,200
Do you regard Have I Got News
For You as a satirical programme?

625
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:42,520
Have I Got News For You has
smuggled quite a lot of satire
into... Political satire.

626
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,920
Political satire, into what looks
like a mainstream quiz show.

627
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,960
I think probably that's
the bit I'm meant to do.

628
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,840
And I think it does
it extremely well.

629
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,840
Ian and John, take a look at this.

630
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,840
Queues.
Yeah, people wanting to vote!

631
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:04,080
Unmanageable turnout of 65%.

632
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,640
What do they think this is?
South Africa? Get out of there!

633
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,960
That's the Lib Dem votes
being chucked in the river.

634
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:17,400
Well, the people have spoken,
as Jo said, and they have said,
"Er, umm... I'm not sure."

635
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,240
Satire, is it a force for good?

636
00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:20,880
Does it have any effect?

637
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:26,560
I have been doing this in print
and on television for about

638
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:33,360
25, 30 years, on and off in various
ways, so it's quite difficult to

639
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,760
look back and say
that had a particular effect.

640
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:42,600
I do still feel, even at
the jaded end of the telescope,

641
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,640
that the effort
of attempting to point out

642
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:51,640
what seems to me consummately
mistaken, wrong or immoral

643
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:53,760
about public life
has been worth the effort.

644
00:45:53,760 --> 00:46:00,120
The reaction I get from
people who have enjoyed the shows
or read the material is one

645
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:06,080
that they enjoy someone
taking the debate in comic form
and then presenting it back to them.

646
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,960
And I think that's
what satire can do best.

647
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:16,080
And I leave you with the news that
as the polls close, Gordon reveals
he's not quite sure how it happened,

648
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,200
but he appears to have cast
his vote for David Cameron.

649
00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:23,760
Good night.

650
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:32,160
Do you think satire is more powerful
today than perhaps it was,
say, 20 years ago?

651
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,800
I think the power of satire is,
to be honest, more or less
always the same.

652
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,360
The greatest satirist in Britain
was Jonathan Swift,

653
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,520
who managed to change one small tax
in a small part of Ireland.

654
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,000
That was it.

655
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:52,440
If you're looking for
concrete results, satire doesn't
tend to produce them.

656
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,960
You swell a consensus, you make
a point, you crystallise opinion.

657
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,840
That's what you can do.
People say, "Why haven't you
toppled the Government?"

658
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:04,680
You say, "Well, it's a democracy
and YOU'RE meant to do that,
by your vote."

659
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,280
What I hope to do
is add to the debate.

660
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:14,800
From Comedy Central's World News
headquarters in New York, this is
the Daily Show with Jon Stewart.

661
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:19,080
In the US, for Hislop's style of
political commentary to exist,

662
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,320
satirists have had to move away from
the major networks

663
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:27,200
to the relatively
censorship-free world of cable.

664
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:32,120
Well, congratulations Gordon Brown,
you've broken the heart of
the sweetest old lady in England.

665
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,760
I do apologise if I said anything
that has been hurtful and I will
apologise to her personally.

666
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,600
Someone has just handed me
the tape, let's play it.

667
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:41,800
'You should never have
put me with that woman.

668
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:43,640
'Whose idea was that?'

669
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,240
"Somebody... Somebody has..."
CHEERING

670
00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:50,560
"Somebody has just handed me..."
CHEERING CONTINUES

671
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,640
"Somebody has just
handed me the tape."

672
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,000
It's like a crash-test dummy.

673
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,760
Let's watch it again in
Daily Show soul-o-vision.

674
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:04,200
You can actually see
the moment when his political
career leaves his body.

675
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:09,800
John Stewart first hosted
the award-winning Daily Show
over 11 years ago.

676
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:14,520
Its success lies in Stewart's
ability to target his wit

677
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,640
towards the day's
top political news stories.

678
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,640
Anything that has passion, anything
that has emotion, anything that is

679
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:29,040
visceral, it's the translation
of that into your performance.

680
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:35,320
So does satire always
therefore have to be funny in order
to win the audience over? No.

681
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,680
No, I think...

682
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:41,920
You know, it's always in bounds.

683
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,120
We always try and put...

684
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,840
There's a certain high-minded
stridency or a point
that you want to make

685
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:52,680
that has to be mitigated by...
a very nice fart joke.

686
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:56,400
There is that mix
that allows it to be palatable.

687
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:02,240
You still think you can
win over detractors
through sound, rational policy?

688
00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:05,000
Were you following the campaign?

689
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,920
I can't trust Obama.

690
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:13,200
I have read about him,
and he is not... He's an Arab.

691
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,720
I don't like the Hussein thing.

692
00:49:15,720 --> 00:49:18,280
I've had enough of Hussein.

693
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,600
You think those ladies are backing
down because they see you've made

694
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,040
some concessions to Bush era
intelligence policies?

695
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:29,720
And as for your fervent supporters?

696
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,680
She thinks you're asking her
to live with you!

697
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,120
And what about the effect?

698
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:01,240
Obviously you want have
an effect, most of the time.

699
00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:04,080
I don't... I don't know that...

700
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:10,520
If its purpose was social change,
we are not picking a very
effective avenue.

701
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:16,200
In some respects, the real outcome
of satire is typically catharsis.

702
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,640
And whether that is positive
or negative, I don't know.

703
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:21,760
And, by the way, catharsis for me.

704
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,040
As far as the audience goes,
I have no idea.

705
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,120
It starts with you.
It starts with me.

706
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,400
The difference between a satirist

707
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,080
and a demagogue is
that we are observers.

708
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:34,680
We don't have the confidence

709
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:36,320
to take that next step.

710
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,360
"Everything's wrong, follow me!"

711
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,800
We just go, "Everything's wrong.
What you want to do? I don't know."

712
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:50,720
Stewart's show continues in its
role as watchdog over the political
process from the east coast,

713
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:55,200
whilst over in LA, the self-styled
bad boy of American satire

714
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,240
is firing off his opinions
to anyone who will listen.

715
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,920
Barack Obama, an actual
college professor

716
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,400
replaced George Bush,
an actual chimp.

717
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,920
Commentators announced that
comedians would be out of a job.

718
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:14,680
Well, they were wrong.

719
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,040
Everyone's out of a job.

720
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,960
When I hear the word satire
I do expect a laugh.

721
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:25,360
It's the difference
between a comedian and a humourist.

722
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,280
If they say you are
a humourist, I'm like, "OK,

723
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,000
"this is not
going to be that good."

724
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,360
But hey, I guess you heard
the big news today.

725
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,560
The President
won the Nobel Peace Prize.

726
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,440
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

727
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:43,960
The Nobel committee said
he won for creating a new climate
in international politics,

728
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:49,280
which sounds so much nicer than,
"In your face, George Bush,
you cowboy asshole!"

729
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:56,400
No stranger to controversy, Maher's
outspoken comments on 9/11 just
a week after the terrorist attack

730
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:01,440
meant that his relationship with the
ABC network came to a rancorous end.

731
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:08,720
This country is not overrun with
rebels and free-thinkers, it's
overrun with sheep and conformists.

732
00:52:08,720 --> 00:52:13,200
Yes, who said that? Very wise. A
very wise man, sitting before me now.

733
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,200
It's true, isn't it?

734
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,160
It is true. We are very conformist,

735
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:25,400
which has been great for me,
because if you're not a conformist
you have a lot to work with.

736
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:27,880
We have a very
polarised electorate now.

737
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:33,320
And the problem is, they don't
need to ever hear anything outside
of their own echo chamber.

738
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,680
They do not want to have
their views challenged.

739
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:42,040
There are a lot of things
that people have not examined
or re-examined

740
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,040
or ever sat down to think about.

741
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,120
And it gives me a living!

742
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,360
Yes, the teabaggers
who started a movement and,

743
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:55,880
in the process, sullied the name
of a perfectly good gay sex act.

744
00:52:55,880 --> 00:53:00,800
That's right, when the year
started, "teabagging" was
a phrase that referred to

745
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,040
dangling one's testicles
in someone else's face

746
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:08,440
and they managed to turn it into
something gross and ridiculous.

747
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:16,560
So, from the comfort of cable TV,
Bill Maher is able to vent

748
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:19,800
his opinions with relatively
little interference,

749
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:25,680
leaving him to push
the boundaries of taste and decency
in the name of satire.

750
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:30,040
But taking political satire
as a whole, are there any limits?

751
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:32,680
Can it ever go too far?

752
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:38,120
For public figures who want to be
in the eye of the storm,

753
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,760
you can't go too far, really.

754
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:46,640
But for me, I felt that
if I'm really actually hurting
the President's feelings

755
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,480
a little bit, maybe I am
going a little too far, you know?

756
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:54,880
I don't feel like I want
to hurt the guy, I just don't
want him to ever be President.

757
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,000
I don't think there
should be limits.

758
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:03,920
I think as long as you
can get it funny enough,
you can get near anything, I think.

759
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:09,400
I think the point of satire is
to try and keep pointing out where

760
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:14,160
what we in England have
always called "vice, folly and
humbug" still exist.

761
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,280
Where you draw that
line is up to you.

762
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:20,920
I don't say, "I would never do that,
I would never do that." It's events.

763
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,800
It depends what those people do,
or it depends what happens.

764
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,240
The whole point of living here is
you are allowed to say these things

765
00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:31,320
and you're not shot or incarcerated,
and we can take it on the chin.

766
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,800
That's what a free society means.

767
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:39,560
So even if a show like
Spitting Image achieved absolutely
no political changes at all,

768
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:45,760
which I think is probably right,
at least it aired the subject, and
I think that's a very good thing.

769
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:49,000
For me, it can never go too far,
but I'm a comedian.

770
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,840
WC Fields once said, to make
a regular person laugh

771
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:58,520
all you have to do is dress up
as an old lady and have the old lady
fall down a manhole cover,

772
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,960
but to make a comedian laugh,
it has to really be an old lady.

773
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:08,640
Unless you go too far,
you don't know where that line is.
I'd much rather go too far

774
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:13,720
and take my lumps for it,
than not go far enough
and have people call me soft.

775
00:55:13,720 --> 00:55:16,000
It's a very personal...

776
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:17,800
People say, "Where is the line?"

777
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,640
I can't draw the line
for other people. No, no.

778
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,760
Because it's different
for whatever...

779
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:24,760
I can't tell you how many times

780
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,840
I will hear from somebody, "We love
your show, we watch it all time,

781
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:33,480
"until you made a joke about
the thing I care about, and
now you've gone too far.

782
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,080
"And I will never watch again."

783
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:37,720
So we try and use,

784
00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:41,800
as we do with everything, our own
internal barometer of human decency,

785
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:46,080
and we try not to overstep that,
and that's all we can do.

786
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:53,960
The greatest danger now is that
one of the big issues of our time
is religion, and particularly Islam.

787
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:57,400
And you're in a situation now
which I've never been in before,

788
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:03,120
which is, when you are writing
a sketch about Islam, for example,

789
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:05,560
but I'm writing a line, and I think,

790
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:10,760
"If this goes down badly, I am
writing my own death warrant here."

791
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:15,920
Because there are people who say,
"Not only do I not think that's
funny, but I'm going to kill you."

792
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,360
And that's chilling.
If you're a Danish cartoonist

793
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:23,480
and you work within
a Western tradition, if you like,
the tradition we have

794
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,800
in this country that you don't take
things too seriously,

795
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,080
and suddenly you are confronted
with a group of people

796
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:37,240
who are fundamentalist and extreme,
and they say, "We are going
to kill you for what you've written,

797
00:56:37,240 --> 00:56:40,240
"for what you have drawn,"
you're in a very chilling reality.

798
00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:42,120
And where does satire go there?

799
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:43,720
I think we like to be brave.

800
00:56:43,720 --> 00:56:46,800
But how brave? But not foolish.

801
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:48,040
But not foolish.

802
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:54,920
So is TV satire alive and well
and playing an active role
in the democratic process?

803
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:58,560
Whatever the challenges facing it,
I feel many of our satirists

804
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:02,840
have been rather modest
about its impact so far.

805
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:06,960
But then,
they would be, wouldn't they?

806
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:13,840
Far more fun to wield nation-changing
power when pretending to people
that you haven't actually got any!

807
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:20,120
I'll never forget one Salvation Army
major who came up to us
after one show and said,

808
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:25,800
"Congratulations, you've done what
the Salvation Army could never do,

809
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:30,880
"you've emptied all the pubs
on a Saturday night."

810
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:32,280
Goodbye for now.

811
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,280
# I wanna go back

812
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:40,240
# To Mississippi

813
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:46,120
# Where the sandy blossoms kiss
the evening breeze

814
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:51,200
# Where the Mississippi mud

815
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,200
# Kind of mingles with the blood

816
00:57:54,200 --> 00:58:01,080
# Of the niggers who are hanging
from the branches of the trees

817
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:07,760
# So carry me home to Mississippi

818
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:12,600
# That all-American

819
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:16,000
# All-American

820
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:21,360
# All-American state. #

821
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:24,360
Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd

822
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:26,520
E-mail subtitling@bbc.co.uk