1 00:00:45,860 --> 00:00:48,620 Val, I'm trying to think how long we've known each other and... 2 00:00:48,620 --> 00:00:50,580 How did we first meet? 3 00:00:50,580 --> 00:00:52,340 It was when you did that film... 4 00:00:52,340 --> 00:00:56,580 ..radio programme about Mahalia Jackson. Ah, yeah, that's right. 5 00:00:56,580 --> 00:00:59,620 I had a call from Sarah Cudden, who was your producer. 6 00:00:59,620 --> 00:01:04,060 And did you say no straightaway? away? No... Well, I... Yes, well... 7 00:01:04,060 --> 00:01:06,900 And we came to your house and, I mean, 8 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:10,980 you're at legendary status now and you won't like me saying that, Val, 9 00:01:10,980 --> 00:01:14,060 but we came to your house and then we got to see all your 10 00:01:14,060 --> 00:01:18,420 photographs of all the wonderful, legendary players that you've 11 00:01:18,420 --> 00:01:22,620 either met or worked with or taken photos of or written about. Yeah. 12 00:01:22,620 --> 00:01:25,260 And I've never forgotten that. 13 00:01:25,260 --> 00:01:28,900 You know, so many articles have written and thoughts put down 14 00:01:28,900 --> 00:01:32,380 and discussed about the birth of rock and roll. 15 00:01:32,380 --> 00:01:37,420 There's one person that was making astonishingly energetic and, 16 00:01:37,420 --> 00:01:41,300 you know, she was using distortion on her guitar and pumping 17 00:01:41,300 --> 00:01:45,340 energy into her recordings way before we now think of 18 00:01:45,340 --> 00:01:47,940 as the official birth of rock and roll. 19 00:01:47,940 --> 00:01:50,660 You know who I'm talking about. Sister Rosetta Tharpe. 20 00:01:50,660 --> 00:01:53,780 Absolutely. Mmm. What do you make of her? 21 00:01:53,780 --> 00:01:58,780 Well, I was very fortunate to see her several times and to know her 22 00:02:00,180 --> 00:02:02,460 but she was a charming woman 23 00:02:02,460 --> 00:02:05,940 and, you know, once she decided she liked you, that was it. 24 00:02:05,940 --> 00:02:09,060 We're going to start with some Sister Rosetta Tharpe, who 25 00:02:09,060 --> 00:02:11,700 many call the godmother of rock and roll. I like to call her that 26 00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:13,180 as well. 27 00:02:13,180 --> 00:02:16,460 # The sweet horsey Oh, the sweet horsey 28 00:02:16,460 --> 00:02:19,540 # Oh, this is the wonderful-est time of my life. # 29 00:02:19,540 --> 00:02:23,420 This is a programme that... Was it in Leeds they made it? Manchester. 30 00:02:23,420 --> 00:02:27,100 Manchester, sorry. Manchester. Yeah, yeah. That's her and Cousin Joe. 31 00:02:27,100 --> 00:02:29,220 # Papa Joe 32 00:02:30,700 --> 00:02:33,700 # It's raining and the people are so kind to stay 33 00:02:33,700 --> 00:02:36,540 # And I've waited here 34 00:02:40,420 --> 00:02:42,860 # Oh, it makes me feel happy 35 00:02:42,860 --> 00:02:44,140 # Oh, yes 36 00:02:44,140 --> 00:02:47,540 # Just to know we can stand in the rain and sing 37 00:02:47,540 --> 00:02:50,380 # And the people are so sweet to stay behind 38 00:02:50,380 --> 00:02:51,580 # Ain't they sweet? 39 00:02:51,580 --> 00:02:53,780 # And I've come in on a Yes? 40 00:02:53,780 --> 00:02:56,780 # Let me tell you what I've come in on... # 41 00:02:56,780 --> 00:03:00,020 This, now, one of the most pivotal moments in the history of 42 00:03:00,020 --> 00:03:01,900 television, I'd say anyway. 43 00:03:06,460 --> 00:03:08,700 # Let me hear you. # 44 00:03:25,580 --> 00:03:29,580 # Didn't it rain, children? 45 00:03:29,580 --> 00:03:31,820 # Rain, oh, yes 46 00:03:31,820 --> 00:03:34,900 # Didn't it? Yes, didn't it? You know it did 47 00:03:34,900 --> 00:03:38,060 # Didn't it? Oh, oh, yes 48 00:03:38,060 --> 00:03:40,700 # How it rained 49 00:03:40,700 --> 00:03:44,340 # I said it rained, children 50 00:03:44,340 --> 00:03:46,700 # Rain, oh, yes 51 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:50,660 # Didn't it just? Didn't it? You know it did, didn't it? 52 00:03:50,660 --> 00:03:53,660 # Oh, my Lord, how it rained. # 53 00:03:53,660 --> 00:03:56,380 Do you know what amazes me with this and the question I 54 00:03:56,380 --> 00:03:58,860 perpetually ask myself when I watch? 55 00:03:58,860 --> 00:04:02,300 It's not the South, although they've made it look like a station 56 00:04:02,300 --> 00:04:04,860 in the Deep South in America. 57 00:04:04,860 --> 00:04:07,420 She's an incredibly successful musician, she's dressed up, 58 00:04:07,420 --> 00:04:10,420 she's got her heels on, she's got her glad rags on. 59 00:04:10,420 --> 00:04:14,740 What were they thinking about this cod American scene? 60 00:04:14,740 --> 00:04:17,060 I know exactly what they were thinking. 61 00:04:17,060 --> 00:04:19,340 They were thinking, well, it's another gig. 62 00:04:20,620 --> 00:04:24,340 She may have played in some of the biggest churches but, you know, 63 00:04:24,340 --> 00:04:27,220 sure as hell she played in some holes as well. 64 00:04:27,220 --> 00:04:29,540 # ..Didn't it rain, children? 65 00:04:29,540 --> 00:04:32,500 # Rain, oh, yes 66 00:04:32,500 --> 00:04:35,980 # Didn't it just? Didn't it? You know it did, didn't it? 67 00:04:35,980 --> 00:04:38,340 # Oh, my Lord 68 00:04:38,340 --> 00:04:39,860 # How it rained. # 69 00:04:41,140 --> 00:04:42,500 Look at her. 70 00:04:42,500 --> 00:04:46,140 She's actually playing live electric guitar, she's playing 71 00:04:46,140 --> 00:04:47,820 electric guitar in the rain. 72 00:04:48,980 --> 00:04:52,020 She is tempting fate but she's a woman who got religion, 73 00:04:52,020 --> 00:04:54,620 so she's got the Lord in her corner. 74 00:04:54,620 --> 00:04:55,940 Yeah! 75 00:04:55,940 --> 00:04:57,340 VAL LAUGHS 76 00:05:05,980 --> 00:05:08,300 # ..Some at the window some at the door 77 00:05:08,300 --> 00:05:11,060 # Some tried, brother Lord To take on more 78 00:05:11,060 --> 00:05:14,100 # But, no, flat-out Uh-uh, my friends 79 00:05:14,100 --> 00:05:16,660 # The angel's got the key And you can't get in 80 00:05:16,660 --> 00:05:19,940 # I know it rained You know it rained 81 00:05:19,940 --> 00:05:22,540 # Rained too long All night long 82 00:05:22,540 --> 00:05:25,740 # Rained all day, rained all night 83 00:05:25,740 --> 00:05:31,500 # Rain, rain, rain, rain, rain 84 00:05:31,500 --> 00:05:35,940 # Rain, children, rained, oh, yes 85 00:05:35,940 --> 00:05:40,180 # Didn't it? Yes, didn't it? You know it did, didn't iT? 86 00:05:40,180 --> 00:05:45,260 # Oh, my Lord, how it rained! # 87 00:05:45,740 --> 00:05:47,780 CHEERING 88 00:05:51,980 --> 00:05:56,660 Yeah, here's John Lee Hooker. That was on Ready Steady Go!, the... 89 00:05:56,660 --> 00:05:59,100 Every Friday night. Yeah. 90 00:05:59,100 --> 00:06:02,700 You know, "Here comes the weekend," or whatever they used to say. 91 00:06:02,700 --> 00:06:06,580 THE hip television programme that everybody watched, and they 92 00:06:06,580 --> 00:06:10,580 were watching it for the latest chart entries and so on. 93 00:06:10,580 --> 00:06:14,140 Vicky Wickerman and people who were in charge made sure... She made sure... 94 00:06:14,140 --> 00:06:17,940 ..there were lots of black artists on there, and that really was... 95 00:06:17,940 --> 00:06:21,100 ..especially blues artists, that was incredible. 96 00:06:21,100 --> 00:06:24,420 It was absolutely unheard of to have on a teenage show, 97 00:06:24,420 --> 00:06:26,180 but this was something else. 98 00:06:30,780 --> 00:06:33,460 # Boom, boom, boom, boom 99 00:06:33,460 --> 00:06:35,620 # I'm going to shoot you right down 100 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:40,140 # Right off of your feet 101 00:06:40,140 --> 00:06:43,060 # Take you home with me 102 00:06:43,060 --> 00:06:45,100 # Put you in my house 103 00:06:46,820 --> 00:06:49,260 # Boom, boom, boom, boom 104 00:06:49,260 --> 00:06:51,500 # I love to see you strut 105 00:06:52,500 --> 00:06:54,540 # Up and down the floor 106 00:06:56,140 --> 00:06:57,820 # When you talking to me 107 00:06:59,460 --> 00:07:00,980 # That baby talk 108 00:07:02,500 --> 00:07:04,420 # I like it like that 109 00:07:05,620 --> 00:07:08,140 # Ho-ho-ho-ho 110 00:07:08,140 --> 00:07:10,980 # Ohh, baby 111 00:07:12,180 --> 00:07:17,540 # Yes, ma'am 112 00:07:17,540 --> 00:07:20,700 # Walk your walk, baby 113 00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:23,620 # Wow, baby 114 00:07:25,380 --> 00:07:28,260 # Walk your walk, baby 115 00:07:28,260 --> 00:07:30,260 # Yes, ma'am. # 116 00:07:45,220 --> 00:07:47,860 This is just like Ready Steady Go!, 117 00:07:47,860 --> 00:07:51,020 the same kind of faces and the same... I used to go there... 118 00:07:51,020 --> 00:07:54,460 ..not every Friday but, you know, every other Friday I'd go there 119 00:07:54,460 --> 00:07:56,740 and take photographs during the rehearsals. 120 00:08:04,460 --> 00:08:06,820 What did John Lee Hooker say about his music? 121 00:08:06,820 --> 00:08:09,100 Did he talk much about it? 122 00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:12,740 I went out and had a lunch with him round the corner to 123 00:08:12,740 --> 00:08:15,380 some bar where we had chicken and chips. 124 00:08:15,380 --> 00:08:19,060 I don't remember much about it. It was just a very simple interview. 125 00:08:19,060 --> 00:08:23,820 I didn't have very sophisticated kind of questions in those days. 126 00:08:23,820 --> 00:08:26,820 It was always, "Who did you play with?" and "Why did you do this?" 127 00:08:26,820 --> 00:08:29,260 They weren't exactly deep! 128 00:08:29,260 --> 00:08:32,140 But I found him a very likeable person, 129 00:08:32,140 --> 00:08:34,140 a very straightforward sort of person. 130 00:08:34,140 --> 00:08:37,460 # ..Once you walked that walk 131 00:08:37,460 --> 00:08:40,100 # And talked that talk 132 00:08:40,100 --> 00:08:43,340 # And whisper in my ear 133 00:08:43,340 --> 00:08:45,900 # Tell me she love 134 00:08:47,140 --> 00:08:49,700 # I loved that talk 135 00:08:49,700 --> 00:08:52,820 # When she talked like that 136 00:08:52,820 --> 00:08:55,100 # She knocked me out 137 00:08:56,540 --> 00:08:59,340 # Right off of my feet 138 00:08:59,340 --> 00:09:02,580 # Ho-ho-ho-ho 139 00:09:02,580 --> 00:09:05,420 # Ohh, baby 140 00:09:05,420 --> 00:09:08,220 # Walk your walk, baby 141 00:09:08,220 --> 00:09:12,260 # Yes, ma'am 142 00:09:12,260 --> 00:09:15,140 # Yes, ma'am... # 143 00:09:26,460 --> 00:09:29,740 Champion Jack Dupree is going to be on next. 144 00:09:29,740 --> 00:09:32,100 Now, he's a fascinating character, 145 00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:36,020 a pianist and singer from New Orleans, but he was also a drummer, 146 00:09:36,020 --> 00:09:39,660 a dancer, everything. A boxer. He'd done all those things. Boxer as well? 147 00:09:39,660 --> 00:09:42,100 That's why he's "Champion"! Ahh. 148 00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:47,140 The thing is that he was the first, really, of a line of pianists 149 00:09:47,860 --> 00:09:52,260 that came in, toured and they all had a long residency at the 150 00:09:52,260 --> 00:09:54,700 Hundred Club in Oxford Street. 151 00:09:54,700 --> 00:09:59,780 You could go down those stairs and have a masterclass in blues piano. 152 00:10:06,700 --> 00:10:09,620 # Well, we're going down to the Chicken Shack 153 00:10:14,620 --> 00:10:17,500 # Have you ever been down to New Orleans? 154 00:10:17,500 --> 00:10:19,900 # You know, boy, that's what I mean 155 00:10:19,900 --> 00:10:22,500 # All through the weekend quiet as a mouse 156 00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:24,500 # And on Saturday night you go from house to house 157 00:10:24,500 --> 00:10:26,380 # Chicken Shack 158 00:10:26,380 --> 00:10:28,380 # Yeah, the Chicken Shack 159 00:10:28,380 --> 00:10:32,340 # At the Chicken Shack right down in New Orleans 160 00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:35,860 # Well, the women drink wine Boys, it's gin 161 00:10:35,860 --> 00:10:39,780 # You all get drunk and stay all night again at the Chicken Shack 162 00:10:39,780 --> 00:10:41,860 # At the Chicken Shack 163 00:10:41,860 --> 00:10:45,700 # At the Chicken Shack Right down in New Orleans 164 00:10:45,700 --> 00:10:47,900 # Hit it, boy 165 00:11:01,180 --> 00:11:04,380 # Well, you don't have to worry about the folks next door 166 00:11:04,380 --> 00:11:06,340 # Give 'em a bottle of wine You don't hear no more 167 00:11:06,340 --> 00:11:10,620 # Chicken Shack 168 00:11:10,620 --> 00:11:14,220 # At the Chicken Shack right down in New Orleans 169 00:11:14,220 --> 00:11:17,220 # There's a joint down there by the name of Mac 170 00:11:17,220 --> 00:11:19,740 # Everybody knows it's called the Chicken Shack 171 00:11:19,740 --> 00:11:22,340 # When they get drunk they get in the groove 172 00:11:22,340 --> 00:11:24,620 # Hearts get to rocking then get to move 173 00:11:29,140 --> 00:11:31,060 # Chicken Shack 174 00:11:33,620 --> 00:11:35,540 # Come on down there, boys... # 175 00:11:49,660 --> 00:11:52,860 He was an orphan, started out in the waifs' home, 176 00:11:52,860 --> 00:11:55,780 the same place where Louis Armstrong learned to play trumpet. Really? 177 00:11:55,780 --> 00:11:58,260 Yeah, he's about the same age. 178 00:11:58,260 --> 00:12:01,220 He fought in the war and he was interned in a Japanese 179 00:12:01,220 --> 00:12:02,860 prisoner-of-war camp. 180 00:12:02,860 --> 00:12:05,260 # ..I'll tell you one more time Before we go 181 00:12:05,260 --> 00:12:07,180 # All you got to do is get that door 182 00:12:07,180 --> 00:12:09,580 # When you get drunk and you feel you're high 183 00:12:09,580 --> 00:12:11,740 # You got no money then you wanna try 184 00:12:11,740 --> 00:12:15,940 # Chicken Shack 185 00:12:15,940 --> 00:12:19,140 # At the Chicken Shack right down in New Orleans 186 00:12:20,660 --> 00:12:29,100 # Chicken Shack 187 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:32,700 # At the Chicken Shack right down in New Orleans. # 188 00:12:36,140 --> 00:12:38,980 When we're watching these films, this is the 1960s. Mmm. 189 00:12:38,980 --> 00:12:43,980 And this is just before the civil rights really comes to the fore. 190 00:12:45,260 --> 00:12:49,140 Champion Jack Dupree, if I remember rightly, was one of the 191 00:12:49,140 --> 00:12:53,980 gentlemen that came, realised that they were being treated a bit more 192 00:12:53,980 --> 00:12:57,260 fairly than over in America, were able to use the same 193 00:12:57,260 --> 00:13:00,940 toilets and restaurants, take the same buses, and so forth. 194 00:13:00,940 --> 00:13:03,940 And didn't he settle in Yorkshire? He did. 195 00:13:03,940 --> 00:13:05,860 And so that was champion, too! 196 00:13:05,860 --> 00:13:10,660 He met a woman who worked in one of the nightclubs near to the 197 00:13:10,660 --> 00:13:14,980 Hundred Club, and they hooked up and he went to live in Halifax. 198 00:13:14,980 --> 00:13:17,060 He must have been so well-known there. 199 00:13:17,060 --> 00:13:19,540 Oh, he was, everybody all over Yorkshire knew him. 200 00:13:19,540 --> 00:13:22,140 He was a Yorkshire lad by then. Yeah. 201 00:13:22,140 --> 00:13:24,100 I'm just looking at all these records. 202 00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:28,500 But this one, bright pink, quite suave. Mmm. Jimmy Witherspoon. 203 00:13:28,500 --> 00:13:30,500 Tell us what you know about him. 204 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:34,020 Well, he was from a place called Gurdon in Arkansas, and he was just 205 00:13:34,020 --> 00:13:37,740 a regular singer. He had the most wonderful voice, baritone voice. 206 00:13:37,740 --> 00:13:40,540 He used to play with Ronnie Scott a lot. They used to play together. 207 00:13:40,540 --> 00:13:43,660 How did you get into listening to blues music in the first place? 208 00:13:43,660 --> 00:13:46,700 Because we know you started taking photographs and 209 00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:49,460 writing about music when you were just a teenager. Yes. 210 00:13:49,460 --> 00:13:52,140 So, where did that flick of light come on and you thought, "Right, 211 00:13:52,140 --> 00:13:54,060 "this is it for me?" Well, it's complicated. 212 00:13:54,060 --> 00:13:56,220 Different people that I met when I was very young. 213 00:13:56,220 --> 00:13:58,660 You know, people who were in our house, a boyfriend I had 214 00:13:58,660 --> 00:14:01,660 when I was about 12! Is that right? Yes, well... 215 00:14:01,660 --> 00:14:05,460 He played the trumpet. He played the trumpet and he told me 216 00:14:05,460 --> 00:14:06,740 about some of the people. 217 00:14:06,740 --> 00:14:10,540 We had a record shop that sold only jazz records, and blues of course, 218 00:14:10,540 --> 00:14:12,700 but of course that's another thing. 219 00:14:12,700 --> 00:14:15,820 Today, you get this differentiation between, you know, 220 00:14:15,820 --> 00:14:19,180 people who listen to jazz OR blues, and they find it strange if 221 00:14:19,180 --> 00:14:21,820 you listen to both, but when I was growing up that's what we... 222 00:14:21,820 --> 00:14:23,860 We were all searching for the authentic. 223 00:14:23,860 --> 00:14:27,420 Blues was part of jazz, and gospel music, if you liked it, as well, 224 00:14:27,420 --> 00:14:28,820 you knew about it. 225 00:14:28,820 --> 00:14:32,300 # Yes, going to Kansas City 226 00:14:32,300 --> 00:14:34,860 # Kansas City, here I come. # 227 00:14:34,860 --> 00:14:38,420 So, we've into the '70s presumably now, cos we're all colour as well. 228 00:14:38,420 --> 00:14:41,820 I looked at this, Crown Records - full colour, high fidelity. 229 00:14:41,820 --> 00:14:44,180 That was a bit before that. 230 00:14:44,180 --> 00:14:49,180 # I was standing on the corner of 12th Street and Vine 231 00:14:49,460 --> 00:14:51,540 # Oh, yes 232 00:14:51,540 --> 00:14:56,580 # Yes, standing on the corner of 12th Street and Vine 233 00:14:58,620 --> 00:15:01,180 # With my Kansas City woman 234 00:15:01,180 --> 00:15:04,660 # And a bottle of Kansas City wine 235 00:15:06,580 --> 00:15:08,540 # Well, I might take a plane 236 00:15:08,540 --> 00:15:10,540 # Might take a train 237 00:15:10,540 --> 00:15:13,620 # If I have to walk I'm going there just the same 238 00:15:13,620 --> 00:15:15,980 # I'm going to Kansas City 239 00:15:15,980 --> 00:15:18,740 # Kansas City, here I come 240 00:15:20,940 --> 00:15:23,460 # Got a crazy way of loving 241 00:15:23,460 --> 00:15:27,620 # I wanna get me some. # 242 00:15:51,780 --> 00:15:55,780 And so when Witherspoon came here, I was a great fan of his. 243 00:15:55,780 --> 00:15:57,300 Somebody, I forget who it was, 244 00:15:57,300 --> 00:15:59,780 I was meant to do some photographs for him. 245 00:15:59,780 --> 00:16:04,100 So I did a record cover for him for Prestige Records 246 00:16:04,100 --> 00:16:07,460 and photographed him in front of all the cherry blossom in Notting Hill. 247 00:16:13,540 --> 00:16:15,900 # ..Well, I might take a plane 248 00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:17,820 # Might take a train 249 00:16:17,820 --> 00:16:21,900 # If I have to walk I'm going there just the same 250 00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:23,780 # Kansas City 251 00:16:23,780 --> 00:16:26,580 # Kansas City, here I come 252 00:16:28,420 --> 00:16:30,780 # Got a crazy way of loving 253 00:16:30,780 --> 00:16:33,380 # I wanna get me some 254 00:16:36,860 --> 00:16:40,860 # Crazy way of loving and I wanna get me some 255 00:16:43,860 --> 00:16:48,260 # Swinging way of loving and I wanna get me some 256 00:16:51,260 --> 00:16:53,260 # Crazy way of loving 257 00:16:53,260 --> 00:16:55,780 # I wanna get me some 258 00:16:58,340 --> 00:17:03,340 # They got a crazy way of living and I wanna get me some 259 00:17:06,100 --> 00:17:10,580 # Got my mojo working but it just don't work on you 260 00:17:13,260 --> 00:17:18,060 # Got my mojo working but it just don't work on you 261 00:17:20,860 --> 00:17:25,900 # Got my mojo working but it just don't work on you 262 00:17:28,820 --> 00:17:33,460 # Got my mojo working Just don't work on you 263 00:17:36,740 --> 00:17:40,500 # My mojo working Just don't work on you 264 00:17:43,780 --> 00:17:46,580 # Got my mojo working but it... # 265 00:17:46,580 --> 00:17:48,540 As Muddy Waters would say it... 266 00:17:48,540 --> 00:17:50,620 # ..It just don't work on you. # 267 00:18:00,180 --> 00:18:01,700 Thank you! 268 00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:04,020 In terms of the repertoire that is available 269 00:18:04,020 --> 00:18:06,380 for you to discover and find, you know, 270 00:18:06,380 --> 00:18:09,980 from when I was really quite young, what I loved about, 271 00:18:09,980 --> 00:18:14,940 let's say, folk music... What's the Louis Armstrong quote? 272 00:18:15,020 --> 00:18:19,820 Oh, "Mr Armstrong is jazz folk music?" 273 00:18:19,820 --> 00:18:21,900 And he said he never heard a horse sing a song. 274 00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:25,500 He said, "It's all folk music, I never heard a horse sing." 275 00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:28,660 But, you know, in terms of folk music, what I loved about it, 276 00:18:28,660 --> 00:18:32,020 and I class some of the blues music as traditional music in that sense, 277 00:18:32,020 --> 00:18:33,860 because it's telling you about life. 278 00:18:34,900 --> 00:18:37,380 And that's what attracted me to the songs and, say, 279 00:18:37,380 --> 00:18:38,900 somebody like Bessie Smith. 280 00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:41,340 This would have been during Prohibition, wouldn't it? 281 00:18:41,340 --> 00:18:43,580 So it's in a...it's set in a... Speakeasy. 282 00:18:43,580 --> 00:18:46,900 ..speakeasy, exactly. That's the word I was looking for. 283 00:18:49,940 --> 00:18:52,420 BACKING CHOIR SINGS 284 00:18:54,580 --> 00:18:56,860 # ..Cos my baby 285 00:18:57,940 --> 00:19:00,780 # He done left this town. # 286 00:19:05,420 --> 00:19:08,060 I mean, we are blessed that we have this clip, you know? 287 00:19:08,060 --> 00:19:10,660 This is the only one of her, I think. Yes, it is. 288 00:19:10,660 --> 00:19:13,100 But she was a fearless person, Bessie Smith, 289 00:19:13,100 --> 00:19:17,700 and she wouldn't take any, you know, rubbish from anybody. 290 00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:20,980 And the idea of all those people singing like a Hollywood choir 291 00:19:20,980 --> 00:19:24,860 is was pretty awful, but it's just wonderful to see her. 292 00:19:24,860 --> 00:19:26,900 BACKING CHOIR SINGS 293 00:19:29,140 --> 00:19:34,180 # I'll pack my grip and make my getaway 294 00:19:34,660 --> 00:19:39,420 # Pack my grip and make my getaway 295 00:19:39,420 --> 00:19:41,300 # St Louis woman... # 296 00:19:41,300 --> 00:19:44,420 BACKING CHOIR SINGS 297 00:19:50,220 --> 00:19:55,260 # Pulls that man around by her apron strings. # 298 00:20:00,140 --> 00:20:03,260 Because she was orphaned, as well, wasn't she, when she was very young, 299 00:20:03,260 --> 00:20:07,700 and had to go out and perform on the streets? Yes. 300 00:20:07,700 --> 00:20:11,220 And as a dancer, not just a singer. Mmm. 301 00:20:11,220 --> 00:20:15,980 For a time, she was the highest earning artist among... Was she? 302 00:20:15,980 --> 00:20:18,740 ..African-American singers, or artists, yeah. 303 00:20:18,740 --> 00:20:22,380 She was very popular, there's no doubt about it. 304 00:20:22,380 --> 00:20:27,420 # Or else he wouldn't have gone so far from me. # 305 00:20:38,020 --> 00:20:43,100 BACKING CHOIR SINGS 306 00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:45,300 # Don't cry 307 00:20:46,780 --> 00:20:48,580 # Doggone... # 308 00:20:48,580 --> 00:20:53,620 BACKING CHOIR SINGS 309 00:20:53,620 --> 00:20:55,660 # Doggone...# 310 00:20:58,540 --> 00:21:01,780 BACKING CHOIR SINGS 311 00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:13,540 You know, in 2018, you can say, "Let's talk about the blues genre," 312 00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:18,820 and people immediately imagine men and guitars and guitar solos 313 00:21:18,860 --> 00:21:20,460 and stuff like that, but actually, 314 00:21:20,460 --> 00:21:22,420 rewind the clock right to the beginning, 315 00:21:22,420 --> 00:21:26,700 and the vast majority of artists in this genre were female. 316 00:21:26,700 --> 00:21:29,380 Yes. Well, I don't know what percentage of artists were female, 317 00:21:29,380 --> 00:21:33,380 but the first blues recording is by Mamie Smith who, of course, 318 00:21:33,380 --> 00:21:35,700 recorded with a jazz group, her own group, 319 00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:37,900 and they were playing jazz, if you like. 320 00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:40,180 You see, they go back to the tent shows and things, 321 00:21:40,180 --> 00:21:41,420 people like Ma Rainey, 322 00:21:41,420 --> 00:21:44,460 they were going round in carnivals and tent shows, travelling shows. 323 00:21:44,460 --> 00:21:46,780 Tell me more about those shows. 324 00:21:46,780 --> 00:21:50,540 Well, they were for poor people in the countryside. 325 00:21:50,540 --> 00:21:53,260 The show would come to town, just like the circus comes to town here. 326 00:21:53,260 --> 00:21:57,060 And there'd be all sorts of people selling patent medicine, 327 00:21:57,060 --> 00:21:58,980 anything to rip people off. 328 00:21:58,980 --> 00:22:03,700 Card games going on in the corner, throwing dice and booze. 329 00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:06,060 Well, I don't know if it was legally booze, but there'd be 330 00:22:06,060 --> 00:22:08,060 some kind of moonshine going on. 331 00:22:08,060 --> 00:22:11,260 And on the stage a show, and people would be putting their best foot forward, 332 00:22:11,260 --> 00:22:14,500 dressed up, everybody, and that's the audience as well, 333 00:22:14,500 --> 00:22:18,580 who maybe didn't have but one piece of clothing to their name. 334 00:22:18,580 --> 00:22:20,700 These are poor people, very poor people. 335 00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:22,260 Oh, this is one. Grande dame. 336 00:22:22,260 --> 00:22:25,820 Oh, here she is, Victoria. Now, she was one of them, Victoria Spivey. 337 00:22:25,820 --> 00:22:30,860 # But your friends will treat you so low down 338 00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:42,340 # TB's all right to have 339 00:22:43,820 --> 00:22:48,100 # But your friends will treat you so low down 340 00:22:54,700 --> 00:22:58,460 # Don't you ask 'em for no favours 341 00:22:58,460 --> 00:23:02,580 # They even stopped coming around 342 00:23:10,980 --> 00:23:15,420 # Oh... 343 00:23:19,140 --> 00:23:21,940 # TB's killing me 344 00:23:30,380 --> 00:23:33,740 # Mmm 345 00:23:38,260 --> 00:23:43,220 # TB's killing me. # 346 00:23:43,220 --> 00:23:46,060 So she's formidable, a brilliant lady. 347 00:23:46,060 --> 00:23:49,980 When she pulls those faces, she's going back to that 348 00:23:49,980 --> 00:23:52,100 minstrel and vaudeville tradition. 349 00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:54,860 Yeah, because that's the thing, she comes from a certain era 350 00:23:54,860 --> 00:23:57,540 where people wouldn't be able to see that close, or...? 351 00:23:57,540 --> 00:23:59,540 Mmm, that's right. 352 00:23:59,540 --> 00:24:01,620 Well, that sort of thing was necessary to... 353 00:24:01,620 --> 00:24:05,260 You had to accentuate it, I suppose, to come across, you know? 354 00:24:05,260 --> 00:24:09,100 I think of it as a stage alter ego. Yes. Yes. 355 00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:12,580 But you have to just see things in context, really. Yeah. 356 00:24:12,580 --> 00:24:17,140 # I could not have walked down the street 357 00:24:17,140 --> 00:24:21,700 # For men looking at me 358 00:24:21,700 --> 00:24:25,780 # From my head to my feet 359 00:24:25,780 --> 00:24:27,860 # But, oh, now... # 360 00:24:27,860 --> 00:24:31,140 In the '60s, she did something very adventurous. 361 00:24:31,140 --> 00:24:34,500 She started a record label, her own record label, 362 00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:37,620 and she started recording a lot of the older artists. 363 00:24:37,620 --> 00:24:40,980 And she lived with a guy called Lenny Kunstadt in Brooklyn, 364 00:24:40,980 --> 00:24:43,980 and he was about 30 years younger than her. 365 00:24:43,980 --> 00:24:47,740 And they used to just sort of, you know, research together. 366 00:24:47,740 --> 00:24:51,140 So the fact that she had this record label was a fantastic thing. 367 00:24:51,140 --> 00:24:53,620 So she was kind of like an ethnomusicologist, really, then? 368 00:24:53,620 --> 00:24:55,060 In a way, I suppose. 369 00:24:59,940 --> 00:25:02,780 # You can just bury my poor body 370 00:25:04,060 --> 00:25:09,140 # Lord, in the deep blue sea 371 00:25:10,340 --> 00:25:14,140 # And don't you...worry about me. # 372 00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:18,100 I think she recorded when she was very young. 373 00:25:18,100 --> 00:25:21,780 Of course, she's on one of Bob Dylan's first records. 374 00:25:21,780 --> 00:25:23,300 Last time I saw her, 375 00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:25,180 I went over to interview her. 376 00:25:25,180 --> 00:25:27,340 She said, "Sit over there, girl!" 377 00:25:27,340 --> 00:25:29,140 So, I said, "Oh, yeah?" 378 00:25:29,140 --> 00:25:31,300 She said, "Yeah, Bob Dylan was here last night. 379 00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:32,940 "That's where his ass was." 380 00:25:32,940 --> 00:25:35,220 I'm saying, "Right, OK." 381 00:25:36,620 --> 00:25:38,100 Absolutely brilliant. 382 00:25:38,100 --> 00:25:39,540 So, did you take a photo of her? 383 00:25:39,540 --> 00:25:41,020 I did, yes. Several. 384 00:25:41,020 --> 00:25:45,620 Next up, we've got somebody who is such an intense performer. 385 00:25:45,620 --> 00:25:49,180 Son House. Yes. You photographed him, as well. 386 00:25:49,180 --> 00:25:51,100 He was electrifying. 387 00:25:51,100 --> 00:25:54,300 This was actually during the course of Jazz Expo. 388 00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:55,460 1967. 1967, yeah. 389 00:25:55,460 --> 00:25:58,180 And then here we are. You can watch him play. 390 00:25:58,180 --> 00:26:01,780 He just absolutely hits the heck out of his guitar. 391 00:26:01,780 --> 00:26:04,540 It's one of those National resonating guitars. 392 00:26:04,540 --> 00:26:05,980 That's right. 393 00:26:05,980 --> 00:26:07,460 Famously made out of metal. 394 00:26:12,260 --> 00:26:16,860 # He got a letter this morning 395 00:26:16,860 --> 00:26:21,740 # How do you reckon it read? 396 00:26:29,820 --> 00:26:33,020 # It said, hurry, hurry 397 00:26:33,020 --> 00:26:38,060 # Uh, yeah Cos the girl you love is dead 398 00:26:44,820 --> 00:26:45,860 # You know... 399 00:26:47,180 --> 00:26:49,740 # He grabbed his suitcase 400 00:26:51,580 --> 00:26:55,420 # And he took off down the road 401 00:26:55,420 --> 00:26:56,820 # Uh-huh 402 00:27:04,020 --> 00:27:07,860 # Well, I grabbed up my suitcase 403 00:27:07,860 --> 00:27:12,980 # I say, and took off down the road 404 00:27:21,220 --> 00:27:24,220 # But when he got there 405 00:27:24,220 --> 00:27:29,180 # Uh, she layin' on a coolin' board... # 406 00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:38,700 Those strings would be super-tight, as well. 407 00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:40,420 Yeah. Yeah. He's ramming it. 408 00:27:40,420 --> 00:27:42,780 Oh, well, he was a powerful man. 409 00:27:42,780 --> 00:27:44,900 When he started playing and singing, of course, 410 00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:47,220 he was absolutely all-powerful. 411 00:27:47,220 --> 00:27:50,940 He was Muddy Waters's model, he claimed that Son House 412 00:27:50,940 --> 00:27:54,620 was the person he saw and he learned from him by watching him. 413 00:27:54,620 --> 00:27:59,620 # That little girl He got to thinking about her 414 00:28:02,060 --> 00:28:04,620 # And he wants to know 415 00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:13,900 # You know I walked up close 416 00:28:16,540 --> 00:28:20,340 # Oh, and looked down on her face 417 00:28:30,500 --> 00:28:33,620 # Yes, I walked up close 418 00:28:34,900 --> 00:28:39,260 # I looked down in her face 419 00:28:45,700 --> 00:28:49,980 # You know it's a good old girl 420 00:28:51,660 --> 00:28:55,780 # And, whoa, got to lay her to Judgment Day... # 421 00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:00,580 Well, I think, you know, the blues is about... 422 00:29:00,580 --> 00:29:04,620 ..and everybody thinks about it as being music of bad times, as well. 423 00:29:04,620 --> 00:29:07,980 But it's really not. It's a music of celebration, of survival. 424 00:29:07,980 --> 00:29:11,500 The way that the African people survived in America, 425 00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:15,460 despite all the hardships and, if you think about it, really, 426 00:29:15,460 --> 00:29:19,860 it's a common thing to think of the blues as a sad state of mind. 427 00:29:19,860 --> 00:29:23,660 It's Saturday-night music before you have to go to church on Sunday. 428 00:29:23,660 --> 00:29:26,580 Essentially, it's about survival, right? Yes, yes. 429 00:29:26,580 --> 00:29:30,700 And Muddy, of course, was the person. 430 00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:34,260 Howlin' Wolf was the most exciting person, in some ways. 431 00:29:34,260 --> 00:29:35,980 The most powerful sounding. 432 00:29:35,980 --> 00:29:40,260 But Muddy was beyond that because he was so sophisticated, too, 433 00:29:40,260 --> 00:29:43,420 in his way. A sophisticated countryman, if you like. 434 00:29:43,420 --> 00:29:46,700 And I was lucky to see him in 1958, when he came here 435 00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:49,500 and he played at what was then St Pancras Town Hall, 436 00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:51,620 opposite King's Cross station. 437 00:29:51,620 --> 00:29:53,180 # When I'd end up 438 00:29:54,540 --> 00:29:56,820 # Deep blue sea 439 00:29:58,220 --> 00:30:01,900 # I'd have all good-lookin' women 440 00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:05,500 # Fishin', fishin' after me 441 00:30:06,580 --> 00:30:09,180 # Fishin' after me 442 00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:13,540 # Fishin' after me 443 00:30:14,980 --> 00:30:17,140 # Oh, darlin' 444 00:30:18,660 --> 00:30:20,580 # Sure enough, I would 445 00:30:22,420 --> 00:30:24,780 # Oh, darlin' 446 00:30:34,660 --> 00:30:39,620 # I went to my baby's house 447 00:30:41,580 --> 00:30:46,460 # And I sat out on her step 448 00:30:48,860 --> 00:30:51,900 # She said, come on in now, Muddy 449 00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:55,340 # You know my husband just done left 450 00:30:57,460 --> 00:31:00,780 # My husband just done left 451 00:31:00,780 --> 00:31:03,580 # Sure enough, he done... # 452 00:31:03,580 --> 00:31:06,620 Where's that record? Which one? The Best Of Muddy Waters. 453 00:31:06,620 --> 00:31:09,220 Oh, yes. Let's have a look at the songs he's written. 454 00:31:09,220 --> 00:31:11,580 Well, no, let's look at the record. Because that... 455 00:31:11,580 --> 00:31:14,180 This is the record... 456 00:31:14,180 --> 00:31:18,100 I love "best ofs". Never knock a "best of". 457 00:31:18,100 --> 00:31:22,580 This is a record that Keith Richards was carrying when Mick Jagger 458 00:31:22,580 --> 00:31:24,980 saw him on the station platform. Never! 459 00:31:24,980 --> 00:31:28,260 And then the Rolling Stones did go on a sort of pilgrimage 460 00:31:28,260 --> 00:31:30,300 to Chess Records, didn't they? 461 00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:33,340 And Muddy Waters, so the story goes, was there painting. That's right. 462 00:31:33,340 --> 00:31:35,940 He was painting the building. And they couldn't believe it. 463 00:31:35,940 --> 00:31:38,980 Because that was their hero. 464 00:31:38,980 --> 00:31:41,740 # Gonna be a rollin' stone 465 00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:43,580 # You gonna be a rollin' stone 466 00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:47,100 # You gonna be a rollin' stone 467 00:31:49,380 --> 00:31:51,460 # Oh, darlin' 468 00:31:52,420 --> 00:31:54,340 # Sure enough, he gone 469 00:31:56,060 --> 00:31:57,900 # Oh, yeah 470 00:32:10,060 --> 00:32:12,940 # Yes, I feel... 471 00:32:14,060 --> 00:32:19,180 # Well, my time ain't long... # 472 00:32:21,060 --> 00:32:23,500 When you come across someone like Muddy... I know 473 00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:27,620 in some of his behaviour he wasn't a gentleman. He was a great womaniser. 474 00:32:27,620 --> 00:32:29,220 That is no secret. 475 00:32:29,220 --> 00:32:33,180 But the way he carried himself and made his way to Chicago, 476 00:32:33,180 --> 00:32:37,300 the way this man talked and moved was something else. 477 00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:39,180 I used to have lots of drinking sessions 478 00:32:39,180 --> 00:32:41,660 with Otis Spann when they came here 479 00:32:41,660 --> 00:32:43,900 and he'd always be eyeing me up in the corner. 480 00:32:43,900 --> 00:32:46,020 But he wasn't going to leap on you and say, 481 00:32:46,020 --> 00:32:49,500 "Hey, baby, come here. Let's have a thing," you know? 482 00:32:49,500 --> 00:32:51,580 Yeah. He just used his mojo hands! 483 00:32:51,580 --> 00:32:53,540 Exactly! Exactly. 484 00:32:53,540 --> 00:32:55,860 Spell you his way without saying anything. 485 00:32:55,860 --> 00:32:58,020 Yeah, but I'd got an anti-spell thing in me, 486 00:32:58,020 --> 00:32:59,980 because I'm not a believer. 487 00:32:59,980 --> 00:33:02,340 Does that sort of give you a little, like, glass... 488 00:33:02,340 --> 00:33:04,380 It puts me ahead of the game. 489 00:33:07,340 --> 00:33:09,300 # ..Sure enough, I'm gone. # 490 00:33:15,700 --> 00:33:18,740 So, next up, we've got Howlin' Wolf. 491 00:33:18,740 --> 00:33:20,900 I would love to see this gentleman play live. 492 00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:22,980 Yes. And you photographed him. 493 00:33:22,980 --> 00:33:26,420 Yes, I did, but I think, probably, one of the reasons I can't remember 494 00:33:26,420 --> 00:33:31,420 all this so well is because I had a bit of a disaster with the film. 495 00:33:31,420 --> 00:33:33,820 I shot a lot of photographs. What happened? 496 00:33:33,820 --> 00:33:37,260 I don't know. The film got fogged, for some reason, in the processing. 497 00:33:37,260 --> 00:33:40,660 I was... I wasn't paying attention, or something. 498 00:33:40,660 --> 00:33:43,500 So I lost nearly all the photographs. 499 00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:46,620 So the fact that we've got one or two... Like, this is one. 500 00:33:46,620 --> 00:33:50,940 The fact that I've got one or two of him is a tremendous achievement. 501 00:33:50,940 --> 00:33:53,100 And you can see, yeah, he's covered with sweat. 502 00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:55,820 Yes, absolutely. He's got glasses on there. Yeah, yeah. 503 00:33:55,820 --> 00:33:59,500 The number that's going out now, friend, is Smokestack Lightnin'. 504 00:33:59,500 --> 00:34:01,020 CHEERING 505 00:34:01,020 --> 00:34:04,140 But Howlin' Wolf's speaking voice is just as distinctive 506 00:34:04,140 --> 00:34:06,260 and charismatic as his singing voice. 507 00:34:06,260 --> 00:34:09,540 You almost want to speak like that. Rarr-rarr-rarr! 508 00:34:17,660 --> 00:34:20,860 # Oh, the train I ride on 509 00:34:23,260 --> 00:34:28,340 # Oh, the air can shine like gold 510 00:34:36,140 --> 00:34:39,780 # Oh, the train I ride on 511 00:34:43,020 --> 00:34:47,460 # Oh, the air can shine like gold 512 00:34:54,500 --> 00:34:56,980 # Whoo-hoo 513 00:34:58,060 --> 00:35:01,060 # Whoo-hoo 514 00:35:01,900 --> 00:35:04,340 # Just like gold 515 00:35:16,580 --> 00:35:20,300 # Oh, the train I ride on... # 516 00:35:21,860 --> 00:35:24,300 You know, from the minute you hear recordings 517 00:35:24,300 --> 00:35:27,700 by Howlin' Wolf, you're in the middle of the scene, 518 00:35:27,700 --> 00:35:31,660 the atmosphere he is able to create instantly. Again, you know, 519 00:35:31,660 --> 00:35:34,940 what I love about this genre of music is just that groove. 520 00:35:34,940 --> 00:35:36,300 I love it. 521 00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:39,180 And anything could happen. See, you're caught, hooked in, 522 00:35:39,180 --> 00:35:42,300 and anything can happen. Yeah. 523 00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:44,940 # ..Just like gold, whoo-hoo! 524 00:36:12,060 --> 00:36:15,540 # Oh, stop your train, darlin' 525 00:36:16,660 --> 00:36:21,740 # And let a poor boy ride 526 00:36:21,820 --> 00:36:26,260 # Uh-huh Don't you hear me callin'? 527 00:36:27,820 --> 00:36:30,380 # Whoo-hoo-hoo 528 00:36:35,300 --> 00:36:37,100 # Whoo-hoo 529 00:36:50,540 --> 00:36:53,620 # A-ha, who been you? 530 00:36:55,860 --> 00:36:58,100 # Baby stands there 531 00:36:59,340 --> 00:37:01,340 # I been gone 532 00:37:02,740 --> 00:37:05,700 # Don't ya hear me talkin' to ya, woman? 533 00:37:06,820 --> 00:37:08,420 # Wey-hey! 534 00:37:10,340 --> 00:37:11,780 # Wey-hey! 535 00:37:13,660 --> 00:37:15,540 # She's soundin' good... 536 00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:20,540 # Oh, she tell me... # 537 00:37:22,020 --> 00:37:23,860 What does she tell me? 538 00:37:23,860 --> 00:37:25,100 She got sassy! 539 00:37:26,260 --> 00:37:28,700 # A-ha, little bitty boy 540 00:37:30,180 --> 00:37:32,380 # Well, I tell you... 541 00:37:34,420 --> 00:37:37,980 # Don't ya hear me callin'? 542 00:37:37,980 --> 00:37:40,700 # Whoo-hoo, yeah 543 00:37:41,820 --> 00:37:45,500 # Whoo-hoo, yeah... # 544 00:37:53,100 --> 00:37:55,180 Everybody thinks of him as the man, don't they? 545 00:37:55,180 --> 00:37:57,780 When they think of the most exciting performer, and so on. 546 00:37:57,780 --> 00:37:59,500 When people think about the blues, 547 00:37:59,500 --> 00:38:02,500 it's either Muddy Waters or Howlin' Wolf, quite often, anyway. 548 00:38:02,500 --> 00:38:04,620 Cos they sort of cut right through, didn't they? 549 00:38:04,620 --> 00:38:06,580 To the mainstream. They did. They were lucky. 550 00:38:06,580 --> 00:38:09,380 I mean, not lucky, by rights, that's what they should have done 551 00:38:09,380 --> 00:38:11,820 and they've influenced all music ever since, 552 00:38:11,820 --> 00:38:15,700 a certain kind anyway, but they are only two of a kind. 553 00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:19,740 There must have been many others who never got near a recording studio. 554 00:38:19,740 --> 00:38:22,420 True. Because they were in isolated places, 555 00:38:22,420 --> 00:38:24,220 or not there at the right time. 556 00:38:24,220 --> 00:38:25,380 That's the other thing, 557 00:38:25,380 --> 00:38:27,820 they were born within the time that recording was possible, 558 00:38:27,820 --> 00:38:31,540 television film was being made, and they got out on tour, as well. 559 00:38:31,540 --> 00:38:33,180 Yeah, that's right. Yeah. 560 00:38:34,140 --> 00:38:37,100 # ..Way-oo 561 00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:38,980 # Way-oo. # 562 00:38:41,900 --> 00:38:45,300 Since I was quite a young child, actually, 563 00:38:45,300 --> 00:38:49,020 I've been quite fascinated, not in what the differences are, 564 00:38:49,020 --> 00:38:52,420 between different regional sounds, or different country sounds, 565 00:38:52,420 --> 00:38:55,500 but, you know, joining the dots. 566 00:38:56,940 --> 00:38:59,980 You start listening to music from the South, 567 00:38:59,980 --> 00:39:02,380 that we've been listening to, and then 568 00:39:02,380 --> 00:39:05,860 you will wonder where the beginnings of that kind of music are. 569 00:39:05,860 --> 00:39:09,620 Much has been said of it coming from, you know, 570 00:39:09,620 --> 00:39:11,620 countries in West Africa, 571 00:39:11,620 --> 00:39:16,620 Mali and Senegal particularly, being very musical cultures. 572 00:39:17,380 --> 00:39:21,500 And there's one artist that is at the top of the sort of 573 00:39:21,500 --> 00:39:24,300 discussion when you think about the African roots of the blues 574 00:39:24,300 --> 00:39:27,660 and I guess it's Ali Farka Toure. Yeah. 575 00:39:27,660 --> 00:39:30,500 This is a problematic area for me. 576 00:39:31,700 --> 00:39:34,780 It is there to some extent but I feel - 577 00:39:34,780 --> 00:39:38,140 and I might be wrong here - that it's greatly exaggerated. 578 00:39:38,140 --> 00:39:42,420 Ali Farka Toure listened to John Lee Hooker's records. He did, yeah. 579 00:39:42,420 --> 00:39:46,500 Therefore, he's a wonderful musician and I love him, 580 00:39:46,500 --> 00:39:51,380 but when you hear him, you're not hearing Malian music. 581 00:39:51,380 --> 00:39:54,020 You're hearing what he's heard on record, as well. 582 00:39:54,020 --> 00:39:57,020 That's influenced him. And yet... Just as everyone's influenced. 583 00:39:57,020 --> 00:40:00,100 ..the linear nature of a lot of music from Mali is recognisable. 584 00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:02,980 Mm. But definitely the guitar sounds... 585 00:40:02,980 --> 00:40:06,220 You probably know more than me, but... No, don't say that. 586 00:40:06,220 --> 00:40:10,340 No, I think that the music is beautiful. 587 00:40:45,260 --> 00:40:47,420 HE SINGS IN SONGHAI 588 00:41:29,500 --> 00:41:33,900 You know, Val, I do play a lot of Saharan blues music on the show. 589 00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:38,540 But it's too far away now. Yeah, but all I'm interested in is this... 590 00:41:38,540 --> 00:41:40,740 ..the feel of it, the groove feel of it... Yeah. 591 00:41:40,740 --> 00:41:43,380 ..is what they have in common, to my ears, anyway, 592 00:41:43,380 --> 00:41:45,940 and that's what I hear differently 593 00:41:45,940 --> 00:41:50,460 to, say, the more sort of country music from Appalachia... Yeah. 594 00:41:50,460 --> 00:41:54,300 ..or other sort of country players from the early 1900s. 595 00:42:17,940 --> 00:42:20,140 THEY SING IN SONGHAI 596 00:43:44,900 --> 00:43:47,340 So, I'm going to ask you about another photograph now, 597 00:43:47,340 --> 00:43:49,900 one of yours, Val. Yes, that's T-Bone Walker. 598 00:43:49,900 --> 00:43:52,620 Right in the middle of a guitar solo, by the looks of it! 599 00:43:52,620 --> 00:43:55,260 Well, again, that's at Hammersmith Odeon on stage. 600 00:43:55,260 --> 00:43:57,820 Yeah. At the '68 Jazz Expo, yeah. 601 00:43:57,820 --> 00:43:59,980 Yeah - and, again, another figure 602 00:43:59,980 --> 00:44:03,340 that I hear mentioned in interviews as a huge influence. 603 00:44:03,340 --> 00:44:04,860 Yes, absolutely. 604 00:44:04,860 --> 00:44:07,420 I think he's not well enough known, 605 00:44:07,420 --> 00:44:11,420 and I think that's because he was playing the blues, 606 00:44:11,420 --> 00:44:15,140 and he was too sophisticated for a lot of blues audiences, 607 00:44:15,140 --> 00:44:19,500 and to down home for the jazz audiences. 608 00:44:19,500 --> 00:44:20,900 # Hey, baby 609 00:44:22,220 --> 00:44:24,700 # Come on home to me 610 00:44:26,700 --> 00:44:29,260 # Hey, baby 611 00:44:29,260 --> 00:44:31,900 # Come on home to me 612 00:44:33,460 --> 00:44:36,500 # Well, you know your daddy mistreat you 613 00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:38,900 # All the time, used to be 614 00:44:41,020 --> 00:44:42,660 # Hey, baby 615 00:44:44,020 --> 00:44:45,900 # I'm in love with you 616 00:44:48,300 --> 00:44:51,420 # Well, momma 617 00:44:51,420 --> 00:44:53,620 # I'm in love with you 618 00:44:55,980 --> 00:44:58,660 # Well, you know I love you Pretty momma 619 00:44:58,660 --> 00:45:00,620 # Nothing else will do... # 620 00:45:37,740 --> 00:45:40,220 He made a good living out of music, he was very famous, 621 00:45:40,220 --> 00:45:41,940 had big bands and so on, 622 00:45:41,940 --> 00:45:44,980 but he certainly wasn't revered as he should have been, 623 00:45:44,980 --> 00:45:47,500 as one of the great innovators of the music. 624 00:46:11,940 --> 00:46:13,860 APPLAUSE 625 00:46:13,860 --> 00:46:15,700 You know, watching all this footage, 626 00:46:15,700 --> 00:46:18,980 it's obviously just from when it was possible - 627 00:46:18,980 --> 00:46:22,020 and I'm just thinking of all the visuals that we could have enjoyed 628 00:46:22,020 --> 00:46:25,020 of people like Mozart or Bach - 629 00:46:25,020 --> 00:46:28,740 any great musician that we just simply can't see in action, 630 00:46:28,740 --> 00:46:31,780 you know? Mozart would have been in there quickly, you know? 631 00:46:31,780 --> 00:46:34,980 He'd be writing a song, peddling it down Tin Pan Alley. 632 00:46:34,980 --> 00:46:37,620 Foot on the piano, Jerry Lee style. 633 00:46:37,620 --> 00:46:41,340 Um - and it brings us onto another momentous moment 634 00:46:41,340 --> 00:46:45,780 in television history. Mm. I'm talking now about a time when... 635 00:46:45,780 --> 00:46:47,180 You imagine it, right? 636 00:46:47,180 --> 00:46:49,420 So, you've got the producer, you've got the directors, 637 00:46:49,420 --> 00:46:50,820 you've got the cameras, 638 00:46:50,820 --> 00:46:53,900 these massive machines at the time, you got it all mapped out - 639 00:46:53,900 --> 00:46:56,340 that person is the presenter, that person is the musician, 640 00:46:56,340 --> 00:46:59,380 that band is going to play that song at that time with the presenter. 641 00:46:59,380 --> 00:47:02,700 Yeah. I'm talking about Lulu, I'm talking about Jimi Hendrix... 642 00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:05,500 It didn't happen that way. He didn't want to do 643 00:47:05,500 --> 00:47:08,180 what the producers and directors wanted him to do. 644 00:47:08,180 --> 00:47:11,220 It's brilliant, because you want people to be like this. Yeah, yeah. 645 00:47:11,220 --> 00:47:14,740 You want a bit of anarchy and a bit of rebellion and a bit of autonomy, 646 00:47:14,740 --> 00:47:16,620 and this is what we get. 647 00:47:16,620 --> 00:47:18,860 MUSIC: Hey Joe by the Jimi Hendrix Experience 648 00:47:23,700 --> 00:47:26,140 We'd like to stop playing this rubbish 649 00:47:26,140 --> 00:47:27,460 and dedicate a song to Cream - 650 00:47:27,460 --> 00:47:29,660 regardless of what kind of group they might be in, 651 00:47:29,660 --> 00:47:31,900 we'd like to dedicate it to Eric Clapton, 652 00:47:31,900 --> 00:47:33,540 Ginger Baker and Jack Bruce. 653 00:47:36,020 --> 00:47:38,180 You can imagine, off stage now, 654 00:47:38,180 --> 00:47:40,900 they're going, "What are they doing?! Get them off!" 655 00:47:40,900 --> 00:47:43,860 but it's live TV, they can't do anything - there's no choice. 656 00:47:43,860 --> 00:47:47,260 That's right. Bar coming on and stopping the music. 657 00:48:18,820 --> 00:48:21,140 We're being put off the air. 658 00:48:42,140 --> 00:48:43,900 Funnily enough, when he came to England 659 00:48:43,900 --> 00:48:45,700 and I interviewed him a couple of times, 660 00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:49,380 and I think I was the first person to - nobody else had done it - 661 00:48:49,380 --> 00:48:51,740 ask him about blues, and I'm always seeing it quoted, 662 00:48:51,740 --> 00:48:54,740 it says, you know, "And Jimi talked about blues musicians - 663 00:48:54,740 --> 00:48:56,700 "Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf and whoever." 664 00:48:56,700 --> 00:48:59,540 Well, that was because I asked him about them. Cos no-one else had? 665 00:48:59,540 --> 00:49:02,740 No, because they didn't associate... To them, he was a pop musician, 666 00:49:02,740 --> 00:49:05,500 he had nothing to do with blues, as far as they were concerned, 667 00:49:05,500 --> 00:49:07,420 because they didn't use their ears. 668 00:49:07,420 --> 00:49:09,980 I found him to be a very sweet guy, 669 00:49:09,980 --> 00:49:12,620 a very exciting performer and a very sweet person. 670 00:49:12,620 --> 00:49:14,940 I've heard that from other sources. No, he was very gentle. 671 00:49:14,940 --> 00:49:16,100 A gentle soul. 672 00:49:16,100 --> 00:49:20,540 That's at the Royal Albert Hall in 1967, it's a rehearsal. 673 00:49:20,540 --> 00:49:22,140 Yeah, and I'll tell you, Cerys, 674 00:49:22,140 --> 00:49:24,060 shall I tell you what my claim to fame is? 675 00:49:24,060 --> 00:49:26,620 Tell me everything you know, Val! One of my claims to fame. Yeah! 676 00:49:26,620 --> 00:49:29,860 I rescued him from a group of young girls, signing autographs, 677 00:49:29,860 --> 00:49:32,460 so I just drew up and said, "Come on, let's go," 678 00:49:32,460 --> 00:49:34,220 and I gave him a lift in my car. 679 00:49:34,220 --> 00:49:36,740 So that's one of my claims to fame. 680 00:49:36,740 --> 00:49:38,900 What happened to him was a very sad thing. 681 00:49:38,900 --> 00:49:41,620 One of those unnecessary deaths, you know? 682 00:49:41,620 --> 00:49:43,780 The next one is a bit of a wildcard. 683 00:49:43,780 --> 00:49:45,740 Peggy Lee. Yes, I know! 684 00:49:45,740 --> 00:49:48,620 Well, people will wonder why I've chosen Peggy Lee 685 00:49:48,620 --> 00:49:50,700 as a representative of the blues. 686 00:49:50,700 --> 00:49:52,740 There's two reasons, really. 687 00:49:52,740 --> 00:49:57,380 The main one is, the song that she's singing is Why Don't You Do Right? 688 00:49:57,380 --> 00:49:58,940 and it was originally a drugs song - 689 00:49:58,940 --> 00:50:01,460 it's about smoking weed in Harlem, or something. 690 00:50:03,380 --> 00:50:07,660 # You had plenty money, 1922 691 00:50:07,660 --> 00:50:12,140 # You let other women make a fool of you 692 00:50:12,140 --> 00:50:17,220 # Why don't you do right like some other men do? 693 00:50:21,740 --> 00:50:26,740 # Get out of here and get me some money too 694 00:50:31,020 --> 00:50:34,740 # You're sittin' down Wonderin' what it's all about 695 00:50:34,740 --> 00:50:39,540 # You ain't got no money They will put you out 696 00:50:39,540 --> 00:50:44,580 # Why don't you do right like some other men do? 697 00:50:49,620 --> 00:50:54,700 # Get out of here and get me some money too... # 698 00:50:58,580 --> 00:51:01,620 Peggy Lee was singing with Benny Goodman's band, 699 00:51:01,620 --> 00:51:03,900 and she got hold of this record and she loved it, 700 00:51:03,900 --> 00:51:07,180 and she played it all the time, and Benny said, "Why don't we play it?" 701 00:51:07,180 --> 00:51:09,180 So, they never thought about... You know, 702 00:51:09,180 --> 00:51:11,780 the idea of a white woman in those days singing the blues 703 00:51:11,780 --> 00:51:13,700 was absolutely unheard of, 704 00:51:13,700 --> 00:51:16,900 and she did it, and it became a mega, mega hit. 705 00:51:16,900 --> 00:51:19,780 Obviously, it shone a lot of recognition on to Peggy Lee... 706 00:51:19,780 --> 00:51:22,460 Yeah. ..but also on to Billie Holliday, because, of course, 707 00:51:22,460 --> 00:51:25,980 as you'll hear, Billie Holliday is her model. 708 00:51:25,980 --> 00:51:30,580 # ..If you had prepared twenty years ago 709 00:51:30,580 --> 00:51:34,940 # You wouldn't be wanderin' now from door to door 710 00:51:34,940 --> 00:51:39,940 # Why don't you do right like some other men do? 711 00:51:44,900 --> 00:51:49,900 # Get out of here and get me some money too 712 00:52:21,060 --> 00:52:25,340 # I fell for your jivin' and I took you in 713 00:52:25,340 --> 00:52:29,860 # Now all you got to offer me's a drink of gin 714 00:52:29,860 --> 00:52:34,900 # Why don't you do right like some other men do? 715 00:52:39,940 --> 00:52:45,020 # Get out of here and get me some money too 716 00:52:47,580 --> 00:52:52,580 # Why don't you do right like some other men do? 717 00:52:55,260 --> 00:53:00,340 # Like some other men do? # 718 00:53:00,860 --> 00:53:05,780 Do you know, Val, what I love about working in music 719 00:53:05,780 --> 00:53:07,820 is being able to interview people 720 00:53:07,820 --> 00:53:10,300 that have been around for a while, and... 721 00:53:10,300 --> 00:53:12,340 ..I interview many guitarists, 722 00:53:12,340 --> 00:53:15,260 and the two names that come up again and again and again 723 00:53:15,260 --> 00:53:18,900 as early influences were Hank Marvin and Big Bill Broonzy. 724 00:53:18,900 --> 00:53:21,300 That's right, yeah. Yeah, they would be. 725 00:53:21,300 --> 00:53:24,220 Absolutely - and Broonzy was such an influence, 726 00:53:24,220 --> 00:53:26,900 he was beloved here, he came here several times. 727 00:53:26,900 --> 00:53:28,460 I saw him the last time he came here - 728 00:53:28,460 --> 00:53:30,340 I don't remember very much about it, 729 00:53:30,340 --> 00:53:34,300 because it was in 1957 and I was about two years old, so, you know... 730 00:53:34,300 --> 00:53:36,060 ..and... 731 00:53:36,060 --> 00:53:38,900 ..but I do remember waiting outside the stage door 732 00:53:38,900 --> 00:53:40,220 to get his autograph, 733 00:53:40,220 --> 00:53:42,860 and when he came down in the lift, this is at the Festival Hall, 734 00:53:42,860 --> 00:53:46,940 he was this man in this huge sort of flapping coat, 735 00:53:46,940 --> 00:53:50,500 and, you know, large trousers and a big muffler round his neck, 736 00:53:50,500 --> 00:53:53,380 because it was cold, a cold time of year, 737 00:53:53,380 --> 00:53:56,580 and he signed my programme and a book of mine, 738 00:53:56,580 --> 00:53:59,540 and I've always treasured that meeting, 739 00:53:59,540 --> 00:54:01,260 although it was only for a second. 740 00:54:01,260 --> 00:54:03,980 I don't think there's any other meeting I've had with somebody 741 00:54:03,980 --> 00:54:07,380 in that "can I have your autograph?" way that is so important to me - 742 00:54:07,380 --> 00:54:11,020 and here he is, look. I know. Famous film, shot in Belgium. 743 00:54:11,020 --> 00:54:12,540 The amount of smoke in this - 744 00:54:12,540 --> 00:54:15,300 and then it makes you want to have a glass of something to drink... 745 00:54:15,300 --> 00:54:18,300 It does! ..when you're watching it! It sure does! 746 00:54:34,740 --> 00:54:39,300 # Late one Saturday evenin' 747 00:54:42,900 --> 00:54:47,980 # After the sun went down 748 00:54:51,060 --> 00:54:55,380 # It was late one Saturday evenin' 749 00:54:55,380 --> 00:54:59,940 # Lord, after the sun went down 750 00:55:04,860 --> 00:55:09,180 # Yes, I went lookin' for my baby 751 00:55:10,940 --> 00:55:15,260 # But she was nowhere around 752 00:55:23,100 --> 00:55:27,940 # Wind started howlin' 753 00:55:30,340 --> 00:55:35,380 # And the rain begin to fall 754 00:55:39,780 --> 00:55:44,020 # The wind started howlin' 755 00:55:44,020 --> 00:55:47,740 # Lord, and the rain begin to fall 756 00:55:53,820 --> 00:55:58,740 # Yes, if my baby had a-known how much I loved her 757 00:56:00,340 --> 00:56:04,460 # She wouldn't have never left at all... # 758 00:56:10,420 --> 00:56:14,180 See, this was 1956. This was the year before I saw him. 759 00:56:14,180 --> 00:56:17,980 On mainstream television... Mm. ..when there was only two channels. 760 00:56:17,980 --> 00:56:22,260 Yeah. So, this is a massive audience. Yeah, that's right. 761 00:56:22,260 --> 00:56:26,740 He's a great influence on the music of this nation, I would say. 762 00:56:26,740 --> 00:56:30,060 # ..Her picture still on my dresser 763 00:56:31,740 --> 00:56:36,460 # And her gown still on my bed 764 00:56:41,700 --> 00:56:46,500 # Yes, I'm just sittin' here Wonderin', is my baby livin'? 765 00:56:47,820 --> 00:56:52,900 # Lord, or is my little baby dead? 766 00:57:00,660 --> 00:57:05,100 # Every Saturday evenin' 767 00:57:09,300 --> 00:57:14,300 # I get as blue as blue can be 768 00:57:17,900 --> 00:57:20,620 # Every Saturday evenin' 769 00:57:22,020 --> 00:57:27,060 # I get as blue as blue can be 770 00:57:32,100 --> 00:57:37,180 # Yes, we three was so happy 771 00:57:37,660 --> 00:57:42,780 # My wife, my guitar and me. # 772 00:57:48,860 --> 00:57:51,780 So, in terms of all the live performers 773 00:57:51,780 --> 00:57:55,860 you've been privy to seeing, and among them were absolute legends, 774 00:57:55,860 --> 00:57:58,460 what one absolutely comes to mind 775 00:57:58,460 --> 00:58:01,860 and you'll never forget? That is so impossible to answer. 776 00:58:01,860 --> 00:58:04,900 That is so impossible to answer, Cerys, I can't... 777 00:58:04,900 --> 00:58:07,260 You know, people like... Three. Three, then. All right. 778 00:58:07,260 --> 00:58:09,540 Um... James Brown. 779 00:58:09,540 --> 00:58:11,980 Um... Duke Ellington. 780 00:58:13,460 --> 00:58:15,980 Muddy Waters. Will that do? 781 00:58:15,980 --> 00:58:19,020 There are many more. Yeah, that'll be a good start. 782 00:58:19,020 --> 00:58:21,860 We'll have to continue this. To be continued. 783 00:58:21,860 --> 00:58:24,100 # ..I'm gonna get up in the morning 784 00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:28,460 # I believe I'll dust my blues 785 00:58:30,260 --> 00:58:32,900 # I'm gonna get up in the morning 786 00:58:32,900 --> 00:58:35,940 # I believe I'll dust my blues 787 00:58:39,100 --> 00:58:42,260 # I gotta leave my baby 788 00:58:42,260 --> 00:58:45,380 # I ain't got no time to lose. #