1 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,190 Recording in one minute. Studio stand by. 2 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:49,999 We'll talk about cuts 3 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:52,310 in government extravagance, aren'twe? 4 00:00:52,480 --> 00:00:56,712 We'll get to that if we've got time afterthe National Data Base. 5 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,108 I don't think people are really interested in the Data Base. 6 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:02,349 It's so trivial. 7 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:03,520 VTrunning. 8 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,114 - What's the matter? - You look a bit too pink. 9 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,192 We can't have that, whatwould the Daily Telegraph say? 10 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,511 All those questions about "are we creating a police state?" 11 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,274 - We can do without those. - Jim, you knowme. 12 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,476 I don't give out my questions in advance. 13 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:19,278 Dead silence, please. 14 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:20,839 Ten seconds... 15 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,277 Five. Four. Three. Two... 16 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:27,675 Good evening. 17 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,832 Is Big Brotherwatching you? To be more precise, 18 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,992 the Government is building up a dossieron you. 19 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:38,551 It's called by the harmless name of"National Integrated Data Base". 20 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,479 At the press of a button any civil servant 21 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,518 can inspect just about every detail of your life 22 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,070 yourtax, yourmedical record, periods of unemployment, 23 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,277 children's school records, and that civil servant 24 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,396 may happen to be yourneighbour. 25 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,593 There's been mounting concern overthis powerful, 26 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,513 even totalitarian weapon that the computerrevolution 27 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:01,557 has put into the Government's hand. 28 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,632 And the man who wields the weapon is the Minister 29 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,588 forAdministrative Affairs, the Right Honourable James Hacker. 30 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,437 Now, Minister, are we laying the foundations of a police state? 31 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,475 You know, I'm glad you asked me that question. 32 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,310 Well, Minister, could we have the answer? 33 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,719 Well, yes of course, I'm about to give it to you, if I may. 34 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,709 As I said, I'm glad you asked me that question. 35 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:28,880 Because... 36 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:31,394 it's a question 37 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:33,951 a lot of people are asking. 38 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:35,120 And why? 39 00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:38,996 Because a lot of people want to know the answerto it. 40 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,154 And let's be quite clearabout this without beating about the bush, 41 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,034 the plain fact of the matter is 42 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,796 that it's a very important question indeed 43 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,316 and people have a right to know. 44 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,192 But Minister, we haven't yet had the answer. 45 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,351 I'm sorry, whatwas the question? 46 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,277 Now look, supposing I annoy you in this interview, 47 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,829 how do I know you won't go back to youroffice, 48 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,514 press a button and call up my tax records, 49 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,353 my hospital records, my police record... 50 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:14,635 Oh no. No. No. 51 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,473 Bob, that's not the way we do things in this country. 52 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:21,269 What's the Data Base for if it's not to check up on people? 53 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,837 You know, that's a very interesting question. 54 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,315 It's forstoring information 55 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,677 so as to speed up government business 56 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:37,078 so thatwe need not take on an enormous influx of clerical staff. 57 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,755 Computers are big business and are good news. 58 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,072 But, Minister, if you put information into the machine, 59 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,993 you'll eventually take information out of the machine. 60 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:49,958 Not necessarily. 61 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,718 So, you're going to spend 25 million pounds 62 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:55,871 accumulating information and neveruse it? 63 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:58,597 No. Yes. No. 64 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,040 Well, there will be safeguards. 65 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:03,269 Such as? 66 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,595 Close in on him, Two. Bob's got him on the run. 67 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,153 One minute 45, studio. 68 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,357 We'll be looking at a whole range of possibilities. 69 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,230 And of course, it's a complex and highly technical matter. 70 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,277 Rome wasn't built in a day. 71 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:19,794 It's underreview. 72 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,269 And of course, these things take time. 73 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,876 Minister, am I talking to the formereditorof Reform 74 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:27,792 orto a Civil Service spokesman? 75 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,713 We haven't talked about the safeguards I've introduced. 76 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,077 And there's my newbureaucratic watchdog office, for instance. 77 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,158 It does look as if we'll need 78 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,595 a whole pack of watchdogs before long. 79 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,359 But thank you very much. 80 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,754 Right, hold it there while we check the tape. 81 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,559 - How did it go? - Well, I thought... First class. 82 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,314 - Very good indeed. - I thought I waffled a bit. 83 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,392 Oh no, you stonewalled superbly, Minister. 84 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:53,629 Time fora drink? 85 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:56,876 About the safeguards I've introduced. 86 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,679 My newbureaucratic watchdog office, for instance. 87 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:03,230 It sounds as if we'll need a pack of watchdogs before very long. 88 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:04,799 But thank you very much. 89 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:06,994 In next week's topic... 90 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,833 - Howwas I? - Splendid, Minister. 91 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,351 Very dignified. Very suitable. 92 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,590 Yes, Sir Humphrey, I congratulate you. 93 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,751 Jim is nowperfectly house trained. 94 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:18,638 He does exactly what you tell him. 95 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,394 - If you'll excuse me, Mr. Weasel. - Weisel. 96 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,631 You say everything the Civil Service programmes you to say. 97 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,552 What are you a man ora mouth? 98 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,073 Very amusing, Frank. 99 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,357 It might be hard fora Political Advisorto understand this, 100 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,431 but I am merely a Civil Servant, 101 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,831 I simply do as I am instructed by my master. 102 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,429 If the Minister's a woman what do you call her? 103 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,432 Yes, that's rather interesting. 104 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:44,999 We sought an answer 105 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,755 when I was Principal Private Secretary and Dr. Edith Summerskill, 106 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,912 as she then was, was appointed Minister in 1947. 107 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,913 I didn't quite like to refer to heras my Mistress. 108 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,713 - Whatwas the answer? - We're still waiting for it. 109 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,671 It's underreview, is it? Rome wasn't built in a day. 110 00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:05,070 - These things take time. - I must be going. 111 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,231 - Me too. - May I remind you 112 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,516 we meet tomorrowmorning at Paddington at 8? 113 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:11,955 - Where are we going? - Swansea, Minister. 114 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,908 You're addressing the Conference of Municipal Treasurers. 115 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:17,195 Oh, yes. 116 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,591 You're due in Newcastle to address the by election meeting. 117 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,478 - So I am. - You can't do both. 118 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,790 - I can't do both. - That's a Civil Service junket. 119 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,474 - The by election's important. - It's important. 120 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,076 The Conference is in yourdiary. They expect you in Swansea. 121 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,071 They expects you in Newcastle. 122 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,834 - How come he's double booked? - How come I'm double booked? 123 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,673 Well, largely because nobody told me about Newcastle. 124 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:40,558 - Why didn't you tell him? - Why didn't you? 125 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:42,278 I can't remembereverything. 126 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,311 Frank, I think I'd bettergo to Swansea. 127 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,596 - Is that a decision? - Yes, that's final. 128 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:49,318 The P. M. Expects you to go to Newcastle. 129 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:50,674 The P. M? 130 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,155 I think I'd bettergo to Newcastle, Bernard. 131 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,440 - Is that a decision, Jim? - Yes, that's final. 132 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,431 - Now I'm going home. - Is that a decision? 133 00:06:58,600 --> 00:06:59,953 No, quite seriously... 134 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,475 I think you've made the wrong decision. 135 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:04,949 Yourvisit to Swansea's been announced. 136 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,350 - You can't get out of it. - Oh, Lord! 137 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,751 Find a way of getting me from Swansea to Newcastle. 138 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,151 Car, train, helicopter, anything. I'll have to do both. 139 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,709 And now I'm going home, and that is final! 140 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,996 - Finallyfinal? - Absolutelyfinally. 141 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,034 If you could do all yourboxes tonight. 142 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,034 There's all the M&A Committee papers and all the letters. 143 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,316 And if you're a good boy, you'll get a sweetie. 144 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:29,480 Good. 145 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:37,154 Hello, darling. 146 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,118 - Thanks, George. Goodnight. - Goodnight, sir. 147 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:46,757 - Hello, darling. - Hello. 148 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,159 Leaving me at last? 149 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,595 It's ouranniversary tomorrow, have you forgotten? 150 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,069 No, of course I haven't forgotten. 151 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,069 We're going to Paris. Oh, my God! 152 00:07:58,240 --> 00:07:59,753 - You had forgotten. - No, I hadn't. 153 00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:02,798 No, it's just that I... I didn't... I'm double... 154 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,589 - I'm going to Swansea tomorrow. - Swansea? 155 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:06,829 And Newcastle. 156 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:08,991 I don'twant to go there formy anniversary. 157 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:10,752 No. Not you. Just me. 158 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:12,876 - Cancel them! - I can't. 159 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:19,553 What are you doing? 160 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,789 Cancel them! We booked this three months ago. 161 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,952 - I can't. - Then I'll go to Paris without you. 162 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:34,670 Hello, Bernard... Yes, it's me... 163 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,956 I'm going to have to cancel tomorrow. 164 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,035 Swansea and Newcastle. 165 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,588 It's my wife's wedding anniversary tomorrow... 166 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:45,949 It's yours too! 167 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,237 Yeah, and mine too actually. Yes, it is. 168 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,631 Coincidence? Don't be silly. 169 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,793 Anyway, I'm going to Paris tomorrow and that's final. 170 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,870 Yes, I said that before, but this time is final! 171 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:02,520 You'll just have to cope as best as you can. 172 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:04,669 Yes? 173 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,231 Yes... definitely... 174 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,319 Yes... 175 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:10,748 Is that clear? 176 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:12,435 Right! 177 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:14,393 We're going to Paris. 178 00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:17,069 No, I'm going to Swansea and Newcastle. 179 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,194 - See me on TV tonight? - I saw somebody who looked like you. 180 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,191 - What's that meant to mean? - Nothing. 181 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,079 Frank says I've become a Civil Service mouthpiece. 182 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:30,434 - Yes. - What do you mean, yes? 183 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,431 - Well... yes. - You mean you agree? 184 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,034 - Of course. - What do you mean, of course? 185 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,510 You could have hired and actor to say it all foryou. 186 00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:41,148 And why not just sign your letters with a rubberstamp? 187 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,709 Orget an Assistant Principal to sign them foryou. 188 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:45,279 They write them anyway. 189 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,398 Assistant Principals do notwrite my letters! 190 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:50,998 UnderSecretaries do that. 191 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,391 I rest my case, my lord. 192 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,710 - You think I've become a puppet? - Yes, I do. 193 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,832 Get Miss Piggy to do yourjob. She's prettier. 194 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,592 I don't knowwhat to do. 195 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,910 I'm just swamped by the work. 196 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,397 Oh, Annie, I'm so depressed. 197 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,516 As we're not going to Paris, 198 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,428 let's at least go out fora quiet little dinnertonight. 199 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:17,235 No, I can't. 200 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,914 Bernard's told me to get through three boxes. 201 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,036 What do you mean, Bernard's told you? 202 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,038 When you edited "Reform" you were quite different. 203 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,475 You went in, you told people what to do, 204 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,358 and you got what you wanted! 205 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,671 Eitheryou get them by the throat orthey get you by the throat! 206 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,116 Howmany articles did you tearup in those days? 207 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,317 - Dozens. - And howmany official papers? 208 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:42,313 - I'm not allowed to! - Not allowed to? 209 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:46,439 Darling, you're the Minister, you can do anything you like. 210 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:52,795 No, Humphrey, I've decided that Frank was right. 211 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:54,234 And Bob McKenzie too. 212 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,039 The National Data Base has got to be organised differently. 213 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:58,200 Yes, Minister. 214 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,396 We want all possible built in safeguards. 215 00:11:00,560 --> 00:11:02,551 - Yes, Minister. - Right away. 216 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,632 What precisely do you mean, right away? 217 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:07,913 I mean right away. 218 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,431 I see, you mean right away? 219 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,434 - Got it in one, Humphrey. - Well, Minister... 220 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,273 We are still in the early months of this Government. 221 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:17,919 And there's an awful lot to get... 222 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,150 The Data Base rules have got to be changed. Now! 223 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,630 - But you can't, Minister. - Yes, I can, I'm the Minister. 224 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:25,512 Yes, indeed you are, Minister. 225 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,356 And quite an excellent Ministerat that. 226 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,511 Nevermind the soft soap, Humphrey. 227 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,030 I want all citizens to have a right to see theirown files 228 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,875 and I want legislation to make unauthorised access, illegal. 229 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,829 - Very well. It shall be done. - Good. 230 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,396 But the legislation necessary to give the public the right 231 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:47,870 to take legal action is extremely complicated 232 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,077 and would take considerable time to draft, 233 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:52,798 promulgate and enact. 234 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,555 Legislation isn't necessaryfora citizen to see his own files, is it? 235 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,388 - No... - Then, we'll startwith that. 236 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:02,836 I suppose we could manage that slightly quicker, 237 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,310 but there's an awful lot of administrative problems as well. 238 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,391 This must have been examined before. 239 00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:11,393 The Data Base has been in preparation foryears. 240 00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:14,199 There must have been discussions about it. 241 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,272 - Yes, indeed. - What conclusions were reached? 242 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,758 Humphrey, what conclusions were reached? 243 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,998 What did my predecessor want to do about it? 244 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,316 Humphrey, can you hearme? 245 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:32,473 My lips are sealed. 246 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:34,309 I beg yourpardon? 247 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,438 I am not at liberty to reveal previous plans, Minister. 248 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:38,669 Why not? 249 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,435 Would you like everything that you have said in this office 250 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,558 to be revealed subsequently to one of youropponents? 251 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:47,715 I see. No. 252 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,714 We cannot give youropponents political ammunition against you. 253 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:53,951 But Tom Sargent was my predecessor. 254 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,680 It isn't a party political mattersurely? 255 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,434 It's a matterof principle. It justwouldn't be... 256 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,513 I see and we don'twant to do anything thatwouldn't be... 257 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:04,715 No. 258 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,350 - Oh, excuse me, Minister. - Yes, Bernard? 259 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,078 A slight problem, Minister. 260 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,237 Because of the adverse... 261 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,313 not entirelyfavourable press reaction to your interview, 262 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,199 the otherChannel wants you fortheirprogramme. 263 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:20,509 - Say no. - No? 264 00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:22,113 - Yes, no. - Yes no? 265 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,112 - Yes, say no! That's final. - If that's what you want. 266 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,589 But they would go ahead with the item 267 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,513 and nobody would be there to state yourcase. 268 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:32,999 No? Okay, yes. 269 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:34,793 No, okay, yes... 270 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,071 - Oh, I see what you mean. - Yes. 271 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:39,599 Finallyfinal? 272 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:41,679 Thank you, Bernard. 273 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,031 What am I going to tell them about safeguards. Humphrey? 274 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,760 Perhaps you could remind them, Minister, 275 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,115 that Rome wasn't built in a day? 276 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:02,589 Tom. 277 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,834 - Oh, my dearfellow. - Mind if I join you? 278 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:07,319 No, of course not. 279 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,389 Well, how are you enjoying being in opposition? 280 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:13,671 How are you enjoying being in Government? 281 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,752 Well, not as much as I expected, actually. 282 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,071 - Well, not at the moment. - Humphrey got you undercontrol? 283 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,191 It's so hard to get things done. 284 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,158 - Did you manage to get things done? - Oh, almost nothing. 285 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,391 When I did cotton on to his technique, there was the election. 286 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,751 - Technique? - Stalling technique. 287 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,874 - Stalling technique? - It comes in five stages. 288 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,717 First, he'll tell you there's lots of things to be getting on with. 289 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,115 - He told me that this morning. - Quite. 290 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,512 Then, if you still persist, he'll say something like 291 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,877 "Ah, yes, Minister, I quite appreciate the intention, 292 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:52,996 certainly something ought to be done, 293 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,277 but are you sure this is the rightway to achieve it?". 294 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:57,873 I must make a note of this. 295 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,476 Now, if you are still undeterred, he will shift his ground. 296 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,558 He will shift from telling you how to do it 297 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,472 to when you should do it. 298 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,113 I mean, he'll say, 299 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:13,640 "Now, Minister, this is not the right time, forall sorts of reasons". 300 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,553 - And Ministers settle forthat? - Well, lots do. 301 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,633 And if you don't, he'll say that the policy"has run into difficulties". 302 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,759 - Such as? - Technical, political, legal... 303 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,158 Legal are the best sort. 304 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,959 He can make those totally incomprehensible. 305 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,279 And with any luck, this technique will have lasted forthree years 306 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,000 and you'll be at the final stage when he says: 307 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,913 "We're getting very close to the next general election. 308 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,071 Are you sure you can get this policy through?" 309 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,196 Howhas it taken three years? 310 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,796 Sir Humphrey will do absolutely nothing unless you chase him. 311 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:49,871 And you've got fartoo much to do. 312 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,589 You see, it's what they call "creative inertia". 313 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,997 What's the policy you're trying to get through anyway? 314 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,118 I'm trying to make this National Integrated Data Base 315 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:03,952 a bit less of a Big Brother. 316 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,392 Oh, is that what it is? 317 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,358 - He's told you it's all quite new? - Well, yes. 318 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,636 My dearfellow, we spent years on that. 319 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,268 We had a White Paper when they called election. 320 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:16,759 I've done it all. 321 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,278 - And administrative problems? - I've solved them. 322 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,274 And you couldn't see any of the previous papers? 323 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,635 No wonder. He's wiped the slate clean. 324 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,473 D'you knowwhat his next move's gonna be? 325 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,313 - No. - Howmany boxes have you got? 326 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,630 - Three? Four? - Five. 327 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,439 Did he tell you not to worry about the fifth one? 328 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,114 - Yes. - Right. I'll take a bet. 329 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,192 You will find at the bottom of the fifth box a memo 330 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,194 which explains exactly why any newmoves on the Data Base 331 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,476 must be delayed. If you don't find it, 332 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,837 he won't do anotherblind thing, but in six month's time 333 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,788 he'll say that he has told you all about it. 334 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,035 Tom, you were in office foryears. You know all the Civil Service tricks. 335 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,839 Not all, old boy. Just a fewhundred. 336 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,913 And how do you make them do something they don'twant to do? 337 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,831 My dearfellow, if I knew that I wouldn't be in Opposition. 338 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,992 But I don't get it. Tom's the opposition. 339 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:21,798 Why did he tell you all this? 340 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,475 - The Opposition aren't the opposition. - Of course not. Silly of me. 341 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,757 - They are called that. - They're the opposition in exile. 342 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,473 The Civil Service are the Opposition in residence. 343 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,869 Now then, bottom of the fifth box, Tom said. 344 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,998 But you can't really do anything. 345 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:41,309 Oh, can't I? 346 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,954 Tom's given me all his papers on the Data Base. 347 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:46,198 Three year's worth! 348 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:47,748 Marvellous! 349 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:51,833 Found it. 350 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,835 It had slipped into an 80 page report 351 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,752 on Welfare procedures. 352 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,269 "Safeguards still underdiscussion... 353 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,196 programme not finalised... 354 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,398 nothing precipitate... 355 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:11,112 failing instructions to the contrary, propose await developments". 356 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:12,280 Typical! 357 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,989 - Ring Humphrey and tell him. - I'll see him first thing. 358 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,999 - Ring him now! - It's two o'clock. 359 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,515 - He'll be fast asleep. - Exactly! 360 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:24,795 Annie. 361 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,315 Why should he be asleep and you're still working? 362 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,789 He's had you on the run. Now it's yourturn. 363 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,477 I couldn't do that. 364 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:34,668 What's his number? 365 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,157 Itwas in the fifth box, you couldn't have got to it earlier. 366 00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:40,509 True. 367 00:18:58,080 --> 00:18:59,080 Yes? 368 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,834 Humphrey, sorry to ring you so late. 369 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,471 I didn't interrupt you in the middle of dinner, did I? 370 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,195 No, we finished dinner some while ago. 371 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:10,918 - Oh, good. - What's the time? 372 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:12,553 Er, two a. m. 373 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,589 - Good God, what's the crisis? - No. No crisis. 374 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,991 I'm going through my boxes, and I knew you'd still be hard at it. 375 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,392 Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Nose to the grindstone. 376 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,518 Well, I've just come across this Data Base paper. 377 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,671 Oh, you've found... you've read it! 378 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,072 Thought I'd bettertell you I'm not happy with it. 379 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,630 You'll welcome an opportunity to work on something else. 380 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,031 - You didn't mind my calling you? - No. Not at all Minister. 381 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,197 Always a pleasure to hearfrom you. 382 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,992 I meant to tell him to see me about it before Cabinet. 383 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:47,593 Don't ring him now. 384 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:50,191 You're right, it is a bit late. 385 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,031 Give him anotherten minutes. 386 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,237 If you could be fairly quick. 387 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,039 - He does have Cabinet at 10. - I can be very quick. 388 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,237 The word "No" is one of the shortest in the language. 389 00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:11,271 Sorry to be so late. Lots of reading to do this morning. 390 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,195 Good morning, Bernard. Thank you, George. 391 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,833 Now, Humphrey, the Data Base. 392 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,477 Have you drafted yoursafeguards? 393 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,148 Well, Minister, I quite appreciate your intention 394 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,959 and fully agree that there is need forsafeguards, 395 00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:28,633 but is this 396 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,717 - the rightway to achieve it? - Well, it's my way. 397 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:34,719 One. 398 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:38,358 That's my decision, anyway. 399 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,394 Well this is not really the time forall sorts of reasons. 400 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:45,033 Two. 401 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,033 It's the perfect time. 402 00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:50,715 Safeguards should be developed alongside systems, 403 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,279 that's common sense. 404 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,558 We tried all this before and we ran into all sorts of difficulties. 405 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:57,949 Three. 406 00:20:58,640 --> 00:20:59,789 Such as? 407 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,717 - Well, technical, for instance. - No. No problems. 408 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,031 We can use the same basicfile interrogation programme 409 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,158 as the U. S. State Dept. And the Swedish Ministry of the Interior. 410 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:11,953 No problems there. 411 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,915 Yes, but there are also formidable administrative problems. 412 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,711 And all departments are affected. 413 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,669 - An interdepartmental committee... - No. No. No, Humphrey. 414 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,919 You'll find that the existing security procedures are adequate. 415 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,833 This is simply an extension. Anything more? 416 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,231 - Well, yes, Minister. - Legal problems, forexample? 417 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,751 - Yes, Minister. - Good, good. 418 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,629 - Do we have the legal power? - I'll answer it. We have. 419 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,792 All personnel affected are bound by theirstaff agreements. 420 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,509 Yes, but Minister, there will be a need forextra staffing. 421 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,389 Will you be able to get it through the parliamentary party? 422 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,313 Yes, I'm quite sure. Anything further? 423 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,357 I don't think so. We can go ahead then. 424 00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:05,759 You're very silent. 425 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,799 You don't seem to realise the amount of work that's involved. 426 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,269 Haven't you examined safeguards before? 427 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:13,919 Underanothergovernment? 428 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,755 I remembersome written answers to parliamentary questions. 429 00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:22,069 Well, in the first place as we've agreed that question is not... 430 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,558 In the second place, if there had been investigations, 431 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:27,995 which there haven't ornot necessarily, 432 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,628 orl am not at liberty to say whetherthere have, 433 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,791 there would have been a project team, which, 434 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,235 had it existed, on which I cannot comment, 435 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,834 which would nowhave disbanded if it had existed 436 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,070 and the members returned to do theirdepartments, 437 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,390 if indeed there had been any such members. 438 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,598 Ornot as the case may be. 439 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,874 - Quite so, Minister. - I want these safeguards 440 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:49,837 made available immediately. 441 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,355 - Minister, it is not possible. - It is. 442 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,033 - It isn't. - It is. 443 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:55,553 - It isn't. - It is. 444 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,393 - It isn't. - 'Tis, 'tis, 'tis, 'tis, 'tis, 'tis. 445 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:01,680 Just to remind you, you have Cabinet at 10.00, 446 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,956 the Anglo American Society at one, 447 00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:07,317 and the "World in Focus" interview, this evening. 448 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,950 - Can't you get me out of the lunch? - It's been announced. 449 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:12,553 I see... I suppose I... 450 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,914 - What's that you just said? - We can't get out of it. 451 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,310 It's been announced, it's in the programme. 452 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:21,519 Thank you, Bernard. 453 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,358 Thank you very much. 454 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,033 Forwhat, Minister? 455 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,515 Foreverything, Bernard. 456 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,198 And our Man on the Spot tonight is the Right HonourableJim Hacker, 457 00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:45,351 MinisterforAdministrative Affairs, 458 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,910 the man at the heart of the Big Brothercomputercontroversy. 459 00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:51,191 He's talking to Godfrey Finch. 460 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:54,989 Minister, as you know there's been an outcry this week about 461 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,869 the dossierthat the Civil Service bureaucracy has apparently 462 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,918 been building up on every citizen in this country. 463 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,039 Now, it's rumoured that this is not in fact, yourown policy, 464 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,590 that you'd like to have safeguards forthe individual citizen, 465 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,150 but that you are being totally frustrated at every stage 466 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,834 of the game by the Civil Service machine. 467 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,236 You know, Godfrey, 468 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,795 there's a lot of nonsence talked about the Civil Service. 469 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,396 It's a marvellous, efficient, professional organisation, 470 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,711 capable of enormous energy and speed. 471 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,316 It's staffed by a lot of talented, dedicated people 472 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,876 who do everything in theirpower to help the Government 473 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,712 make it's policies into law. 474 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,553 Well, thank you forthe commercial, Minister. 475 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,509 Perhaps we can start the programme now? 476 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,599 The fact of the matter is that the Civil Service and I 477 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,354 are in complete accord overthis whole business 478 00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:55,351 and I'm happy to announce that we're nowready 479 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,718 to put ourproposals into publication. 480 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,950 In fact, tonight I can say that from Septemberthe first, 481 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:05,793 every citizen of the U. K. Will have the absolute right 482 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,633 to inspect his personal file and check any information 483 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,314 that he has eversupplied to the Government. 484 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:12,833 Secondly, 485 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,037 no civil servant will be allowed to examine personal files 486 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,158 from anotherdepartment, without written authorityfrom a Minister. 487 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,949 And I shall be announcing in the House next week legislation 488 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:27,556 enabling citizens to take legal action against any civil servant 489 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,473 who gains unauthorised access to his file. 490 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,717 Encouraging, Minister. 491 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,197 Why did you not say so first, and put people's minds at rest? 492 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:41,353 I didn't believe that the Civil Service could meet ourdeadlines. 493 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,590 But they've convinced me that they can. 494 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,910 And, in fact, my Permanent Secretary 495 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,672 has staked his reputation on it. 496 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,594 And if not, heads will roll... 497 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,037 Anyway, Assistant Heads. 498 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,115 Thank you very much, Minister. 499 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,919 - It can't be done. - It's been announced on TV. 500 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,436 Bernard, what did you make of our Minister's performance? 501 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,956 Well, I... I think it's check mate, Sir Humphrey. 502 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,590 See me on the box last night, Humphrey? 503 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:37,599 Of course, Minister. 504 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,830 Howwas I? Good? 505 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,553 A most remarkable performance, Minister, if I may say so. 506 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,154 - You may, you may. - Thank you, Minister. 507 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,117 We have been working very hard all night, 508 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,548 and I'm happy to be able to tell you thatwe have come up 509 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,030 with some draft proposals which would enable you to achieve 510 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,589 yourdesired objectives by the stated dates. 511 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:02,875 Well done. 512 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,430 I told the nation how splendid you were and I was right. 513 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,752 - I had every confidence in you. - Quite so, Minister. 514 00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:11,872 You must have had quite a night. 515 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,789 - Yes, Minister, quite a night! - Let's see yourproposals. 516 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:18,308 Here they are. 517 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,638 And here are mine. 518 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,751 You have specific proposals too? 519 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:28,393 Oh, indeed I have. 520 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,836 Now, Humphrey, you read out what you've got on safeguards, 521 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,037 and I'll read out what I've got and we'll see how they compare. 522 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,155 "Personal data 1A: 523 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,559 Safeguards must be applied with reference to... 524 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:45,988 Two criteria. 525 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,953 The need to know and the right to know. 526 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,110 1A1. The need to know 527 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,552 only those officials... 528 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,837 forwhom the information was submitted may be deemed, 529 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,560 prime facie, to have a need to know. 530 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,275 We seem to be of the same mind, Humphrey. 531 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:06,668 Indeed, Minister. 532 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,629 Where did those proposals come from? 533 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:17,828 Minister? 534 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,193 Can you hearme? 535 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,473 Where did those proposals come from? 536 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,750 Humphrey, my lips are sealed.