1 00:00:47,267 --> 00:00:50,226 What time is the Minister recording this broadcast? 2 00:00:50,387 --> 00:00:51,820 Two p. m., Sir Humphrey. 3 00:00:51,987 --> 00:00:54,979 Can't you stop him referring to the Solihull project? 4 00:00:55,147 --> 00:00:57,058 - There's not a hope. - Oh, God. 5 00:00:57,227 --> 00:00:59,866 "It's a shining example of collaboration 6 00:01:00,027 --> 00:01:02,177 between government and industry". 7 00:01:02,347 --> 00:01:05,305 - How could he think that? - You told him itwas. 8 00:01:06,987 --> 00:01:08,739 Can a 74 million building project 9 00:01:08,907 --> 00:01:11,979 in the middle of a city, be swept underthe carpet? 10 00:01:12,307 --> 00:01:15,982 - We'll use the Official Secrets - A secret? It's so huge. 11 00:01:16,147 --> 00:01:18,342 It's a big secret, Bernard. 12 00:01:18,507 --> 00:01:20,941 But you can't use the Official Secrets Act 13 00:01:21,107 --> 00:01:23,177 with something everybody knows about? 14 00:01:23,467 --> 00:01:28,336 The Official Secrets Act is not to protect secrets, but officials. 15 00:01:29,907 --> 00:01:32,137 Why haven't you allowed me to show 16 00:01:32,307 --> 00:01:35,982 the Solihull Report to the Minister, tell him the truth? 17 00:01:36,427 --> 00:01:37,780 He hasn't asked. 18 00:01:37,947 --> 00:01:40,939 Why bothera Minister ifhe doesn'twant to know? 19 00:01:41,107 --> 00:01:43,462 But how could he ask ifhe doesn't know? 20 00:01:43,707 --> 00:01:45,060 Quite so. 21 00:01:45,227 --> 00:01:48,424 It's not that I'm questioning yourjudgement but... 22 00:01:48,587 --> 00:01:50,305 - But? - But why? 23 00:01:50,627 --> 00:01:53,699 Because, Bernard, the Solihull Report contained 24 00:01:53,867 --> 00:01:57,303 a paragraph casting doubt on the financial soundness 25 00:01:57,467 --> 00:02:00,664 of Michael Bradley and Sloane Enterprises Ltd. 26 00:02:00,827 --> 00:02:04,581 And the report's foresight had some insight in the light ofhindsight? 27 00:02:04,867 --> 00:02:05,936 What? 28 00:02:06,187 --> 00:02:08,906 If it said that Michael Bradley was going to go bust? 29 00:02:09,067 --> 00:02:11,058 Please, Bernard, watch your language. 30 00:02:11,627 --> 00:02:15,381 The point is that, by the time the Report came out, I was so... 31 00:02:15,547 --> 00:02:18,778 orratherthe Department was so committed to Bradley 32 00:02:18,947 --> 00:02:22,576 that it seemed worth taking the risk to see the project through. 33 00:02:22,747 --> 00:02:25,739 If the Ministerknows this partnerwas going bust, 34 00:02:25,907 --> 00:02:28,467 he wouldn't make a broadcast about it. 35 00:02:28,667 --> 00:02:32,865 Ministers should neverknow more than they need to know. 36 00:02:33,107 --> 00:02:34,586 Then they can't tell anyone. 37 00:02:36,187 --> 00:02:37,905 Like secret agents. 38 00:02:38,267 --> 00:02:39,859 They could be captured and tortured. 39 00:02:40,027 --> 00:02:41,380 By terrorists? 40 00:02:41,547 --> 00:02:43,458 By the BBC, Bernard. 41 00:02:44,307 --> 00:02:47,902 The bank doesn't know whetherornot to foreclose. 42 00:02:48,067 --> 00:02:51,343 I'll dine with Sir Desmond Glazebrook, theirChairman. 43 00:02:51,547 --> 00:02:53,299 We might manage to cook something up. 44 00:02:53,467 --> 00:02:55,139 Why don't you go to a restaurant? 45 00:02:57,027 --> 00:02:59,336 Anyway, in the meantime, come what may, 46 00:02:59,507 --> 00:03:03,341 the Ministermust not refer to the Solihull Project on the air. 47 00:03:03,507 --> 00:03:06,943 Sir Humphrey, this is a bit of a coverup, isn't it? 48 00:03:07,187 --> 00:03:08,256 Certainly not. 49 00:03:08,427 --> 00:03:12,022 It is responsible discretion exercised in the national interest 50 00:03:12,187 --> 00:03:16,339 to prevent unnecessary disclosure of eminently justifiable procedures 51 00:03:16,507 --> 00:03:20,705 in which untimely revelation could severely impairpublic confidence. 52 00:03:20,867 --> 00:03:22,698 Oh, I see. It's like Watergate? 53 00:03:22,867 --> 00:03:23,867 Bernard! 54 00:03:25,707 --> 00:03:29,177 If you wish to leave the Service and become a BBC interviewer, 55 00:03:29,347 --> 00:03:32,066 - you have only to apply. - I'm sorry, but... 56 00:03:32,227 --> 00:03:34,183 Howwas Watergate different exactly? 57 00:03:34,347 --> 00:03:37,020 Watergate happened in America, Bernard! 58 00:03:37,827 --> 00:03:39,624 Oh yes, yes. I see. 59 00:03:40,987 --> 00:03:43,137 - Good morning, Minister. - Good morning. 60 00:03:43,307 --> 00:03:45,104 Morning, Bernard. Sorry I'm late. 61 00:03:45,267 --> 00:03:47,144 Put them on the desk, George. 62 00:03:47,307 --> 00:03:50,583 I don'twant to be late at Broadcasting House. 63 00:03:50,747 --> 00:03:53,864 What's the broadcast all about? NATO, wasn't it? 64 00:03:54,027 --> 00:03:55,938 No, partherships in industry. 65 00:03:56,427 --> 00:03:59,260 Oh, yes. I knew itwas something like that. 66 00:03:59,787 --> 00:04:01,937 - Who else is in it? - It's all in there. 67 00:04:02,107 --> 00:04:04,302 An Employer and a Trades Unionist. 68 00:04:04,747 --> 00:04:06,146 Joe Morgan? 69 00:04:06,307 --> 00:04:09,219 Wasn't he the TUC representative on the Solihull project? 70 00:04:09,387 --> 00:04:10,536 Er, Minister... 71 00:04:11,587 --> 00:04:12,736 Yes, Humphrey? 72 00:04:12,907 --> 00:04:16,536 You are not proposing to refer to the Solihull project on the air? 73 00:04:16,707 --> 00:04:19,175 Yes. It's a shining example of cooperation 74 00:04:19,347 --> 00:04:21,303 between the Government and industry. 75 00:04:21,467 --> 00:04:24,265 But I would be much happier if itwere omitted. 76 00:04:24,427 --> 00:04:25,427 Why? 77 00:04:25,587 --> 00:04:28,147 Don't you think it's ratherpremature? 78 00:04:28,307 --> 00:04:30,867 Certainly not. Building started months ago. 79 00:04:31,267 --> 00:04:34,145 Exactly. Ratherout of date, in fact. 80 00:04:34,307 --> 00:04:36,218 Premature and out of date? 81 00:04:36,387 --> 00:04:38,218 Well, untimely. 82 00:04:38,387 --> 00:04:41,140 Would it be uninteresting to the general public? 83 00:04:41,307 --> 00:04:43,298 No. It's something that's going on. 84 00:04:43,467 --> 00:04:45,503 - Extremely interesting. - Yes. Quite so. 85 00:04:45,667 --> 00:04:47,658 So interesting that there is a danger 86 00:04:47,827 --> 00:04:50,705 that it might obscure yourmain point, perhaps. 87 00:04:50,987 --> 00:04:52,545 What is my main point? 88 00:04:54,107 --> 00:04:56,541 Bernard, what's the Minister's main point? 89 00:04:56,747 --> 00:05:00,262 Private projects are more socially responsible with government money, 90 00:05:00,427 --> 00:05:03,624 and government projects are more efficientwith private investment. 91 00:05:03,787 --> 00:05:06,062 You see? It underlines my main point. 92 00:05:06,227 --> 00:05:08,024 You really are a wet blanket. 93 00:05:08,187 --> 00:05:10,178 Just go about stirring up apathy. 94 00:05:10,427 --> 00:05:12,895 Minister, I must seriously advise you 95 00:05:13,067 --> 00:05:15,422 with all the earnestness at my command, 96 00:05:15,587 --> 00:05:18,579 not to referto the Solihull Project on the air. 97 00:05:18,747 --> 00:05:19,816 Why? 98 00:05:20,267 --> 00:05:22,064 - What? - I said, why? 99 00:05:22,467 --> 00:05:23,536 - Why? - Why? 100 00:05:24,147 --> 00:05:25,147 Well, Minister... 101 00:05:25,307 --> 00:05:28,299 Are you planning to take the credit forthis yourself? 102 00:05:28,627 --> 00:05:31,778 At the European Convention of Government administration. 103 00:05:31,947 --> 00:05:34,825 Yourspeech will make very good reading. 104 00:05:34,987 --> 00:05:36,864 Well, a fewfacts of life. 105 00:05:37,427 --> 00:05:40,897 Politicians are responsible ultimately to the people, 106 00:05:41,067 --> 00:05:44,184 and we get the credit. Not Civil Servants. 107 00:05:44,347 --> 00:05:48,386 I would be happyforyou to have the "credit" forthis project. 108 00:05:48,547 --> 00:05:51,619 But, I must beg, beseech and implore you not today. 109 00:05:51,787 --> 00:05:54,904 No, it's no good. I'm not going to fall for it. 110 00:05:55,067 --> 00:05:57,865 I'm going to get all the political capital of this. 111 00:05:58,027 --> 00:05:59,983 I know a good thing when I see one. 112 00:06:00,147 --> 00:06:02,103 - Please, do listen to... - No. No. No. 113 00:06:02,267 --> 00:06:03,666 - Minister, p... - No, 114 00:06:04,427 --> 00:06:05,701 Humpy. 115 00:06:10,587 --> 00:06:11,940 - What? - What? 116 00:06:15,947 --> 00:06:19,144 If it had been up to me, I'd help out like a shot. 117 00:06:19,587 --> 00:06:20,622 Quite so. 118 00:06:20,787 --> 00:06:23,255 It's not the bank's fault if some idiot Minister 119 00:06:23,427 --> 00:06:26,260 gets into bed with a kid, who runs with the money. 120 00:06:26,427 --> 00:06:28,895 That Ministerwasn't entirely to blame. 121 00:06:29,067 --> 00:06:31,376 There were extenuating circumstances. 122 00:06:31,547 --> 00:06:34,857 This Bradley chap looked very sound at the time. 123 00:06:35,027 --> 00:06:38,542 But you wouldn't have done a damn fool thing like that. 124 00:06:39,267 --> 00:06:40,495 Would you? 125 00:06:40,747 --> 00:06:44,217 When it looked like Bradley wanted a loan thatwas one thing. 126 00:06:44,387 --> 00:06:46,184 But nowhe can't pay his bills. 127 00:06:46,347 --> 00:06:47,700 Well, he is unlikely 128 00:06:47,867 --> 00:06:51,382 to fulfil his financial undertakings to Her Majesty's Government. 129 00:06:51,547 --> 00:06:53,265 Can't pay his bills, you mean. 130 00:06:53,747 --> 00:06:57,979 And Her Majesty's Government's undertakings go down with him. 131 00:06:58,147 --> 00:06:59,147 Yes. 132 00:06:59,307 --> 00:07:02,982 Unless a reputable bank were to take overthe contract 133 00:07:03,147 --> 00:07:06,901 from Bradley with a view to participating in a project 134 00:07:07,067 --> 00:07:10,855 which Her Majesty's Government is determined to make profitable. 135 00:07:11,027 --> 00:07:12,027 Quite so. 136 00:07:12,187 --> 00:07:14,655 More Sancerre for Her Majesty's Government? 137 00:07:16,227 --> 00:07:18,787 Well, like I say, it's up to my Board. 138 00:07:18,947 --> 00:07:20,983 Could go eitherway, quite frankly. 139 00:07:21,387 --> 00:07:23,218 - Could go eitherway. - I see. 140 00:07:24,507 --> 00:07:27,817 Incidentally, to change the subject completely, 141 00:07:27,987 --> 00:07:30,740 you rememberthe new Ministry Copartnership 142 00:07:30,907 --> 00:07:32,863 Commission you mentioned? 143 00:07:33,027 --> 00:07:34,142 Indeed. 144 00:07:34,307 --> 00:07:36,946 The Chairmanship hasn't been filled yet? 145 00:07:38,347 --> 00:07:41,464 - Not yet, Desmond. - Because if itwere to be... 146 00:07:41,627 --> 00:07:43,345 should one be offered... 147 00:07:43,547 --> 00:07:46,266 not forthe money, I mean, what's 8,000 a year? 148 00:07:46,547 --> 00:07:49,061 160 a week. Part time. 149 00:07:49,227 --> 00:07:50,376 Quite. 150 00:07:50,867 --> 00:07:53,540 But itwould be a fascinating... 151 00:07:53,707 --> 00:07:56,380 Has anything been decided, informally? 152 00:07:56,707 --> 00:07:59,346 You're looking around fora couple of quangos, 153 00:07:59,507 --> 00:08:00,940 and I can tell you, 154 00:08:02,547 --> 00:08:05,744 in complete confidence, that yourname is 155 00:08:07,907 --> 00:08:09,420 on the shortlist. 156 00:08:10,907 --> 00:08:12,135 On the shortlist? 157 00:08:12,867 --> 00:08:16,018 Quangos can't suddenly be in short supply, can they? 158 00:08:16,347 --> 00:08:18,736 There's report in today's Telegraph. 159 00:08:18,907 --> 00:08:20,386 "The Quango Jungle: 160 00:08:21,787 --> 00:08:24,779 There are still around 8,000 paid appointments 161 00:08:24,947 --> 00:08:28,576 within the gift of Ministers to Quasi Autonomous NGOs, 162 00:08:28,747 --> 00:08:31,898 - at five million pounds a year". - You'll have two orthree spare. 163 00:08:32,067 --> 00:08:34,183 There's certainly a lot of them around, 164 00:08:34,347 --> 00:08:36,907 the point is finding one that is appropriate. 165 00:08:37,187 --> 00:08:39,655 There has to be some reason to appoint you. 166 00:08:40,827 --> 00:08:45,378 What about the Advisory Committee of Dental Establishments? 167 00:08:45,707 --> 00:08:48,585 - Know anything about teeth? - I'm a banker. 168 00:08:49,907 --> 00:08:52,660 And that rules out the Milk Marketing Board, too. 169 00:08:52,867 --> 00:08:53,867 Right. 170 00:08:54,747 --> 00:08:57,978 How about the Dumping at Sea Representations Panel? 171 00:08:58,147 --> 00:09:00,741 - Do you live nearthe sea? - Knightsbridge. 172 00:09:03,987 --> 00:09:05,420 Just behind Harrods. 173 00:09:07,107 --> 00:09:08,665 Not nearenough. 174 00:09:08,907 --> 00:09:12,786 That more or less rules out the Clyde River Purification Board too. 175 00:09:13,107 --> 00:09:14,938 - Rump steak? - That's forme. 176 00:09:15,107 --> 00:09:17,382 Meat Marketing Board. Know anything about meat? 177 00:09:17,747 --> 00:09:19,021 I eat it. 178 00:09:19,707 --> 00:09:21,026 Not enough. 179 00:09:21,427 --> 00:09:23,497 It rules out the Meat and Liverstock Commission. 180 00:09:23,667 --> 00:09:26,056 - Doversole. Sir? - White Fish Authority? 181 00:09:26,227 --> 00:09:27,227 Potatoes? 182 00:09:27,387 --> 00:09:29,298 Potato Marketing Board? 183 00:09:30,227 --> 00:09:33,902 The Governors of the National Vegetable Research Station? 184 00:09:34,307 --> 00:09:37,265 The National Biological Standards Board? 185 00:09:37,427 --> 00:09:39,782 Is that my salad. Thank you, Robert. 186 00:09:40,987 --> 00:09:44,423 The Arable Crops and Forage Board? 187 00:09:45,307 --> 00:09:48,265 The Food and Drink Training Board? 188 00:09:48,507 --> 00:09:50,463 Some French mustard, please? 189 00:09:50,627 --> 00:09:54,700 What about the Food Additives and Contaminants committee? 190 00:09:55,867 --> 00:09:58,427 I know very little about any of those. 191 00:09:58,867 --> 00:10:01,779 - Well, what do you know about? - Nothing. 192 00:10:02,667 --> 00:10:05,056 Nothing really. I'm a banker. 193 00:10:08,187 --> 00:10:09,620 This is not easy. 194 00:10:13,587 --> 00:10:16,340 The Fire Services Examinations Board? 195 00:10:20,187 --> 00:10:21,905 St. John's Ambulance? 196 00:10:23,467 --> 00:10:25,537 - French mustard, sir. - Thank you. 197 00:10:25,747 --> 00:10:28,625 What about the Plant Varieties and Seeds Tribunal? 198 00:10:29,147 --> 00:10:31,263 Dammit, Humphrey, I'm a banker. 199 00:10:31,587 --> 00:10:32,781 Thank you. 200 00:10:33,907 --> 00:10:36,899 There must be some minority group that you can represent. 201 00:10:37,827 --> 00:10:38,976 Bankers. 202 00:10:39,867 --> 00:10:43,143 You see, the ideal quango appointee is a black, Welsh, 203 00:10:43,307 --> 00:10:45,616 disabled woman Trade Unionist. 204 00:10:47,307 --> 00:10:50,026 We're all looking around forone of them. 205 00:10:50,427 --> 00:10:53,305 - You don't happen to know any? - No. 206 00:10:53,467 --> 00:10:54,980 No. Well... 207 00:10:55,147 --> 00:10:59,379 It all boils down to the Industry Copartnership Commission. 208 00:10:59,547 --> 00:11:01,458 I'd find that quite acceptable. 209 00:11:01,627 --> 00:11:04,460 Well, it is within the gift of my Minister. 210 00:11:05,027 --> 00:11:07,780 And you need only put in appearances twice a month. 211 00:11:07,947 --> 00:11:09,175 Lots of papers? 212 00:11:09,347 --> 00:11:12,419 Yes, but itwouldn't be awfully necessary to read them. 213 00:11:13,467 --> 00:11:15,583 I wouldn't have anything to say at the meetings. 214 00:11:15,747 --> 00:11:18,898 Splendid. You're just the chap I'm looking for. 215 00:11:24,387 --> 00:11:26,423 Broadcasting House, please. 216 00:11:37,187 --> 00:11:39,257 Sorry to keep you, George. 217 00:11:39,427 --> 00:11:42,578 When you drop me, please take Mr. Wooly on to the House. 218 00:11:43,027 --> 00:11:45,621 Why Humphrey wants to stop me 219 00:11:45,787 --> 00:11:48,347 mentioning the Solihull Project on the air? 220 00:11:48,507 --> 00:11:51,419 Didn't you think he gave 6 or 7 convincing reasons? 221 00:11:51,587 --> 00:11:52,986 No. Did you? 222 00:11:53,147 --> 00:11:55,024 I think he knows what he's doing. 223 00:11:55,187 --> 00:11:56,666 Sure he does. 224 00:11:56,867 --> 00:11:58,698 I only wish I knew what he was doing. 225 00:11:58,867 --> 00:12:01,939 I'm sure if Sir Humphrey advises something, then, 226 00:12:02,107 --> 00:12:04,905 whateverhe does advise is advisable. 227 00:12:06,707 --> 00:12:09,221 - What do you advise? - It's not forme to advise, 228 00:12:09,387 --> 00:12:11,947 but I would advise you that you would be 229 00:12:12,107 --> 00:12:15,224 well advised to follow Sir Humphrey's advice. 230 00:12:16,387 --> 00:12:17,387 Why? 231 00:12:17,667 --> 00:12:19,737 Well, it's just that... 232 00:12:19,907 --> 00:12:22,057 certain projects have certain aspects which, 233 00:12:22,227 --> 00:12:25,822 with sensitive handling, given reasonable discretion, 234 00:12:25,987 --> 00:12:30,299 when events permit, there is no prima facie reason why, 235 00:12:30,547 --> 00:12:34,256 with appropriate give and take, if if all goes well, 236 00:12:34,427 --> 00:12:38,784 in the fullness of time, when the moment is ripe, er... 237 00:12:40,187 --> 00:12:41,745 You're blathering. 238 00:12:42,427 --> 00:12:45,146 - Yes, Minister. - Why are you blathering? 239 00:12:45,307 --> 00:12:46,865 It's my job, Minister. 240 00:12:48,107 --> 00:12:51,258 An example of this is going on up in Solihull now. 241 00:12:51,467 --> 00:12:53,423 Government money and private investment 242 00:12:53,587 --> 00:12:55,543 working together in a real partnership. 243 00:12:55,707 --> 00:12:56,935 Claptrap. 244 00:12:57,107 --> 00:13:00,702 And it's symbolic of the way this Government is working. 245 00:13:00,867 --> 00:13:04,462 I've taken a personal interest in the Solihull Project because... 246 00:13:04,627 --> 00:13:08,586 Not justwords, it is actually there in bricks and mortar. 247 00:13:08,947 --> 00:13:11,666 A concrete example, if I may put it like that, 248 00:13:11,827 --> 00:13:14,466 of the fact that ourprinciples really work. 249 00:13:14,747 --> 00:13:18,103 Thank you, Minister. One lastword, Mr. Conway? 250 00:13:18,467 --> 00:13:22,380 There's nothing wrong with the principle of partnership... 251 00:13:22,547 --> 00:13:24,936 Provided that there's no interference 252 00:13:25,107 --> 00:13:28,656 in management decisions from the State orthe workforce. 253 00:13:28,827 --> 00:13:30,977 Thank you, Mr. Conway. Joe Morgan? 254 00:13:31,187 --> 00:13:33,906 Dear, oh dear, oh dear. 255 00:13:34,587 --> 00:13:37,181 We all know that Mr. Conway is talking 256 00:13:37,347 --> 00:13:39,622 out of date capitalist claptrap. 257 00:13:40,547 --> 00:13:42,981 If partnership is to mean anything, it must mean 258 00:13:43,147 --> 00:13:46,935 an equal partnership between unions, government and industry. 259 00:13:47,107 --> 00:13:49,302 - In that order. - Afinal word, Minister? 260 00:13:49,467 --> 00:13:53,096 - There's no need to be offensive. - Gentlemen, please. 261 00:13:53,347 --> 00:13:55,065 We're all in agreement. 262 00:13:55,227 --> 00:13:58,378 We've shown that if we can work together 263 00:13:58,547 --> 00:14:00,663 we can forge a new Britain. 264 00:14:00,827 --> 00:14:04,536 And it's a pleasure to talk to two of the principal forgers... 265 00:14:04,707 --> 00:14:06,504 principal participants. 266 00:14:06,747 --> 00:14:07,747 Thank you. 267 00:14:07,907 --> 00:14:11,058 James Hacker, Minister forAdministrative Affairs, 268 00:14:11,227 --> 00:14:15,459 was talking with George Conway, from the Construction Federation, 269 00:14:15,627 --> 00:14:19,984 and Joe Morgan, from the Commercial and Administrative Workers Union. 270 00:14:23,347 --> 00:14:26,384 Splendid. Thank you all. Jean will take you to Hospitality. 271 00:14:26,547 --> 00:14:28,981 - Was it really all right? - First class. 272 00:14:29,147 --> 00:14:30,819 Most interesting, Minister. 273 00:14:32,107 --> 00:14:36,180 Can we edit that awful Hacker waffle down to two and a half? 274 00:14:36,507 --> 00:14:38,099 Leave the Solihull bit. 275 00:14:39,467 --> 00:14:42,300 - Joe, see you later. - Yes, George. 276 00:14:42,467 --> 00:14:44,662 I hope you won't mind my mentioning it, 277 00:14:44,827 --> 00:14:46,897 Mr. Harker, but could you put a word in 278 00:14:47,067 --> 00:14:50,025 formy members' claim for a special Birmingham allowance? 279 00:14:50,187 --> 00:14:54,066 I don't think I can conduct Trade Union negotiations in a BBC studio. 280 00:14:54,347 --> 00:14:57,180 And that's a matter forthe Employment... 281 00:14:57,347 --> 00:14:59,542 - But a word from you... - No, I'm sorry. 282 00:14:59,707 --> 00:15:03,382 We'd have a Manchesterallowance, Plymouth allowance, 283 00:15:03,547 --> 00:15:05,299 Chipping Sodbury allowance... 284 00:15:05,467 --> 00:15:09,904 Afterthis broadcast people might ask about the Solihull project, 285 00:15:10,067 --> 00:15:12,058 wanting to knowmore about it. 286 00:15:12,227 --> 00:15:13,376 I hope they do. 287 00:15:13,547 --> 00:15:18,177 But as we know, there are some things betternot found out. 288 00:15:19,907 --> 00:15:21,977 I'm sure we understand one another. 289 00:15:23,627 --> 00:15:24,696 Do we? 290 00:15:25,547 --> 00:15:27,185 Something in youreye? 291 00:15:28,107 --> 00:15:30,382 - Just a gleam. - What? 292 00:15:30,667 --> 00:15:32,464 Oh, come off it, Hacker. 293 00:15:32,627 --> 00:15:35,300 We've got you by the short and curlies. 294 00:15:36,107 --> 00:15:38,621 And I'm asking 10 % below London allowance, 295 00:15:38,787 --> 00:15:41,506 and we'll settle for 30 % below. 296 00:15:41,667 --> 00:15:43,817 Give you the credit forbeating us down. 297 00:15:43,987 --> 00:15:47,297 No allowance. You'd better resign youself to that. 298 00:15:47,667 --> 00:15:50,739 I'm not the one who will have to resign. 299 00:15:51,107 --> 00:15:53,860 - What are you talking about? - The Solihull Project. 300 00:15:54,027 --> 00:15:57,019 I could hardly believe you took all the credit for it. 301 00:15:57,187 --> 00:16:00,657 Great courage, of course, but whateverpossessed you? 302 00:16:00,827 --> 00:16:04,024 "Cannons to the right ofhim, Cannons to the left ofhim, 303 00:16:04,187 --> 00:16:06,906 Into the Valley of death rode Mr. Hacker". 304 00:16:14,427 --> 00:16:15,860 How did it go, sir? 305 00:16:16,947 --> 00:16:19,222 Oh, very well. Very well. 306 00:16:19,747 --> 00:16:22,819 I was talking about government industry cooperation. 307 00:16:23,547 --> 00:16:26,539 There's a very interesting project in the Midlands. 308 00:16:26,707 --> 00:16:30,905 I don't suppose you'd have heard about it, but it's very interesting 309 00:16:31,827 --> 00:16:33,704 if you know the background. 310 00:16:33,907 --> 00:16:36,216 You don't mean the Solihull Project, sir? 311 00:16:36,507 --> 00:16:38,463 Yes. You have heard about it. 312 00:16:41,187 --> 00:16:43,576 - What are you laughing about? - Nothing, sir. 313 00:16:47,027 --> 00:16:49,416 - What have you heard? - Nothing really, sir. 314 00:16:50,267 --> 00:16:52,223 It's a shining example of collaboration 315 00:16:52,387 --> 00:16:54,343 between government and industry. 316 00:16:56,667 --> 00:16:58,862 What do you know about all this? 317 00:16:59,027 --> 00:17:03,339 37 journeys between the Ministry and Mr. Michael Bradley's office, 318 00:17:03,507 --> 00:17:06,897 44 Farringdon Street, and 129 Birmingham Road, Solihull. 319 00:17:07,307 --> 00:17:08,865 37 journeys? Who with? 320 00:17:09,027 --> 00:17:12,303 Yourpredecessor, sir, and Sir Humphrey, mostly. 321 00:17:14,987 --> 00:17:17,626 Very cheerful they were, on the first few trips. 322 00:17:17,787 --> 00:17:20,620 They kept talking about shining examples 323 00:17:20,787 --> 00:17:23,426 of successful collaboration and such like. 324 00:17:23,947 --> 00:17:26,541 Then the gloom started to come down. 325 00:17:27,347 --> 00:17:30,225 - Gloom? - Well, no not gloom. 326 00:17:30,747 --> 00:17:32,863 More like desperation, really. 327 00:17:33,227 --> 00:17:35,138 Desperation? What about? 328 00:17:36,027 --> 00:17:38,222 You know the background, sir. 329 00:17:39,067 --> 00:17:40,739 Well, yes, yes... 330 00:17:41,747 --> 00:17:44,705 Any bit of the background you were thinking of? 331 00:17:45,027 --> 00:17:48,906 No. When something's fishy, it's just fishy, isn't it? 332 00:17:49,267 --> 00:17:51,986 You don't knowwhich bit the smell's coming from. 333 00:17:52,347 --> 00:17:55,419 - Fishy? - Well, I don't really know. 334 00:17:55,827 --> 00:17:58,899 Forall I know, Mr. Bradley may be quite kosher, 335 00:17:59,067 --> 00:18:02,184 despite everything Sir Humphrey said about him. 336 00:18:02,627 --> 00:18:05,016 You knowmore about all that than I do. 337 00:18:05,187 --> 00:18:06,461 I'm just the driver. 338 00:18:07,267 --> 00:18:08,700 Quite. Quite. 339 00:18:09,267 --> 00:18:11,098 I'm just the Minister. 340 00:18:11,907 --> 00:18:15,422 An allowance for Morgan's union is out of the question. 341 00:18:15,587 --> 00:18:17,703 But howwas the broadcast? 342 00:18:17,987 --> 00:18:20,023 Well, all right, I think. 343 00:18:20,187 --> 00:18:21,461 You think? 344 00:18:21,907 --> 00:18:24,740 I talked about the Solihull Project. 345 00:18:24,987 --> 00:18:27,421 And then I had second thoughts. 346 00:18:27,587 --> 00:18:29,305 Any particularreason? 347 00:18:29,707 --> 00:18:34,383 No... Humphrey, is everything all right about the Solihull Project? 348 00:18:34,707 --> 00:18:35,856 Yes, Minister. 349 00:18:36,027 --> 00:18:38,382 The building works proceed satisfactorily. 350 00:18:38,547 --> 00:18:41,061 No, no, no, that's not what I meant. 351 00:18:41,707 --> 00:18:44,585 - Is something going on? - Building is going on. 352 00:18:44,747 --> 00:18:46,021 No, no, Humphrey. 353 00:18:46,187 --> 00:18:48,064 Something's up, isn't it? 354 00:18:48,387 --> 00:18:50,378 - Yes indeed, Minister. - What? 355 00:18:50,547 --> 00:18:52,981 The 1st floor is up, and the 2nd flooralmost up. 356 00:18:53,147 --> 00:18:56,139 I'm talking about the whole basis of the thing. 357 00:18:56,307 --> 00:18:57,899 Oh, I see. 358 00:18:58,067 --> 00:19:01,503 - What can you tell me about? - As I understand it... 359 00:19:01,667 --> 00:19:04,101 The basis is an aggregate of gravel and cement on 360 00:19:04,267 --> 00:19:06,258 six feet ofbest builders rubble. 361 00:19:06,427 --> 00:19:09,180 You know I am talking about the finance. 362 00:19:09,347 --> 00:19:13,135 Ourcontractwith the construction company you mean? 363 00:19:13,307 --> 00:19:16,265 The stage payments are in accordance with all the usual... 364 00:19:16,427 --> 00:19:18,782 Humphrey! What is it that I don't know? 365 00:19:19,667 --> 00:19:23,501 - What precisely do you mean? - I don't know. 366 00:19:24,107 --> 00:19:26,223 That's just it, I don't know 367 00:19:26,387 --> 00:19:29,538 because I can't find what questions to ask you, 368 00:19:29,707 --> 00:19:32,665 and I don't knowwhat to ask you because I don't know. 369 00:19:32,827 --> 00:19:34,545 What is it that I don't know? 370 00:19:34,787 --> 00:19:37,779 Minister, I don't know what you don't know. 371 00:19:38,267 --> 00:19:40,019 It could be almost anything. 372 00:19:40,187 --> 00:19:43,179 - Your're keeping something from me. - Yes indeed. 373 00:19:43,387 --> 00:19:46,584 It is the Department's duty to protect the Minister 374 00:19:46,747 --> 00:19:49,466 from the great tide of irrelevant information 375 00:19:49,627 --> 00:19:52,858 that beats against the walls of this Department. 376 00:19:53,027 --> 00:19:55,063 There is something about the Solihull Project 377 00:19:55,227 --> 00:19:57,502 that I know I don't know and I know you know. 378 00:19:57,667 --> 00:19:59,737 I know Bernard knows. Joe Morgan knows. 379 00:19:59,907 --> 00:20:01,818 My own driverknows more than I do. 380 00:20:01,987 --> 00:20:05,423 Only poorJoe Soap who has to tell the public about it 381 00:20:05,587 --> 00:20:08,704 hasn't got a clue as to what's going on. 382 00:20:10,027 --> 00:20:12,257 Will you answer a simple question? 383 00:20:12,467 --> 00:20:14,856 Certainly, Minister. What is it? 384 00:20:15,587 --> 00:20:17,225 I don't know! 385 00:20:18,027 --> 00:20:20,097 If you tell me, I'll ask it! 386 00:20:20,507 --> 00:20:21,507 Well... 387 00:20:21,667 --> 00:20:24,056 - Yes, Frank? - Ourmeeting. 388 00:20:24,227 --> 00:20:26,616 - About my quango paper. - Come on in. 389 00:20:26,787 --> 00:20:30,063 - You've read Frank's paper? - Yes indeed, Minister. 390 00:20:30,627 --> 00:20:34,256 What did you think about ending the ministerial patronage? 391 00:20:34,427 --> 00:20:36,577 All those thousands of jobs forthe boys. 392 00:20:36,747 --> 00:20:39,181 Most original and imaginative. 393 00:20:39,627 --> 00:20:40,696 You liked it? 394 00:20:40,867 --> 00:20:44,223 Those are two of Humphrey's most damning criticisms. 395 00:20:44,507 --> 00:20:46,896 Itwould be a very popular political move. 396 00:20:47,067 --> 00:20:50,343 Hand the quango appointments overto Parliament. 397 00:20:50,507 --> 00:20:54,466 The best men forthe job instead of old chums, partyhacks. 398 00:20:54,627 --> 00:20:56,458 It should be legislated. 399 00:20:56,627 --> 00:20:59,425 - It is a novel proposal... - That's the otherkiller. 400 00:20:59,587 --> 00:21:02,181 But when a system is working smoothly... 401 00:21:02,347 --> 00:21:05,544 Smoothly! Look at this! Proposal forChairman 402 00:21:05,707 --> 00:21:08,779 of the new Industrial Coparthership Commission, 403 00:21:08,947 --> 00:21:11,336 Sir Desmond Glazebrook, I ask you! 404 00:21:11,507 --> 00:21:13,418 He's neverbeen in industry, 405 00:21:13,587 --> 00:21:16,784 and he's said unpleasant things about this government. 406 00:21:16,947 --> 00:21:19,177 Is that a smoothly operating system? 407 00:21:19,347 --> 00:21:22,100 - He would be an excellent... - He's a blithering idiot! 408 00:21:22,267 --> 00:21:25,896 - Yes, but an excellent Chairman. - I'm sorry, Humphrey. 409 00:21:26,067 --> 00:21:28,979 I am not going to appoint Sir Desmond Glazebrook. 410 00:21:29,147 --> 00:21:31,536 - Minister, you must. - No, no, no... 411 00:21:31,707 --> 00:21:34,540 - Please, Minister... - No way. No Glazebrook. 412 00:21:34,707 --> 00:21:36,663 Overmy dead body. Right? 413 00:21:36,907 --> 00:21:40,297 Minister, before you make yourfinal decision 414 00:21:42,147 --> 00:21:44,980 I think perhaps you ought to see this. 415 00:21:47,307 --> 00:21:49,298 "Report on the Solihull Project". 416 00:21:49,467 --> 00:21:51,025 Why is it top secret? 417 00:21:52,227 --> 00:21:53,865 "7.5 million pounds... 418 00:21:54,027 --> 00:21:56,063 probably bankrupt proceedings... 419 00:21:57,187 --> 00:21:59,542 inminent collapse of project"... well... 420 00:22:01,267 --> 00:22:03,542 Imminent collapse of project! 421 00:22:04,587 --> 00:22:06,145 Why didn't you tell me? 422 00:22:06,307 --> 00:22:09,265 I am conscious of the heavy burdens of youroffice. 423 00:22:09,427 --> 00:22:12,100 But this'll be all overthe front pages. 424 00:22:12,267 --> 00:22:14,542 It's a public scandal, a disaster. It's... 425 00:22:14,707 --> 00:22:16,379 - It's appalling... - Jim. 426 00:22:16,547 --> 00:22:19,778 It is dated before the election. You're in the clear. 427 00:22:19,947 --> 00:22:22,939 Yes, but unfortunately underthe convention 428 00:22:23,107 --> 00:22:25,940 of Ministerial responsability, the blame must fall... 429 00:22:26,107 --> 00:22:28,575 - Everyone will know itwasn't Jim. - Quite so. 430 00:22:28,747 --> 00:22:32,262 The principle of democratic accountability requires 431 00:22:32,427 --> 00:22:34,463 the occasional human sacrifice. 432 00:22:35,067 --> 00:22:37,740 When the pack is baying forblood... 433 00:22:37,907 --> 00:22:40,262 - Isn't that right? - He'll point to the dates... 434 00:22:40,427 --> 00:22:44,306 Oh, a lesserman might try to wriggle out of it. 435 00:22:44,467 --> 00:22:47,459 But there is only one honourable course open. 436 00:22:47,667 --> 00:22:50,386 As the Minister is well aware. 437 00:22:50,987 --> 00:22:52,898 Frank might have a point? 438 00:22:53,107 --> 00:22:55,905 Only today you have publicly identified yourself 439 00:22:56,067 --> 00:22:57,944 with the success of the project. 440 00:22:58,307 --> 00:23:00,377 The broadcast! When's it going out? 441 00:23:00,547 --> 00:23:02,856 It's due fortransmission about now. 442 00:23:03,027 --> 00:23:04,540 Get on to the BBC at once. 443 00:23:04,707 --> 00:23:06,698 - Stop it! - Stop what? Oh yes... 444 00:23:07,427 --> 00:23:10,499 I wish you luck but you know what the BBC are like. 445 00:23:10,667 --> 00:23:13,101 This is a crisis, this is a scandal... 446 00:23:13,267 --> 00:23:16,816 If you were to put it like that, they might... 447 00:23:16,987 --> 00:23:19,979 - Might what? - Move it to peak listening time. 448 00:23:21,747 --> 00:23:22,862 Any luck? 449 00:23:23,027 --> 00:23:27,145 Aperfect example of what can be done is going on up in Solihull. 450 00:23:27,307 --> 00:23:30,504 Government money and private investment in real partnership 451 00:23:30,667 --> 00:23:34,706 to me, symbolic of everything this Government is working for. 452 00:23:34,867 --> 00:23:38,382 I've taken a great personal interest in the Solihull project. 453 00:23:38,547 --> 00:23:42,460 It's not just words, it's actually there in bricks and mortar... 454 00:23:48,347 --> 00:23:51,419 "Symbolic of everything this Government is working for". 455 00:23:52,347 --> 00:23:54,781 How could you let me say all those things? 456 00:23:54,947 --> 00:23:56,903 Minister, I can only advise. 457 00:23:57,067 --> 00:23:59,535 I did advise. I advised most strongly. 458 00:23:59,707 --> 00:24:01,823 But when the adviser's advice is unheeded... 459 00:24:01,987 --> 00:24:03,705 All right, all right. 460 00:24:04,507 --> 00:24:06,304 Advise me now. 461 00:24:07,187 --> 00:24:08,700 Certainly, Minister. 462 00:24:08,987 --> 00:24:11,501 It is possible that the bank may take over 463 00:24:11,667 --> 00:24:14,101 the contract from Bradley and Sloane Enterprises Ltd. 464 00:24:14,267 --> 00:24:15,746 And all will be well. 465 00:24:15,907 --> 00:24:19,695 - The bank! Fine! Well... - The bank, however, is hesitant. 466 00:24:19,987 --> 00:24:22,820 But it so happens that the Director in charge 467 00:24:22,987 --> 00:24:25,376 is to retire next year and he's anxious 468 00:24:25,547 --> 00:24:27,424 to find anotherappointment... 469 00:24:27,587 --> 00:24:29,976 a chairmanship of a quango, for instance. 470 00:24:30,147 --> 00:24:31,341 Give him one! 471 00:24:31,547 --> 00:24:34,107 Give him that one you were reserving forthat idiot 472 00:24:34,267 --> 00:24:36,223 Sir Desmond Glazebrook. 473 00:24:37,107 --> 00:24:38,301 Who is the Director? 474 00:24:38,467 --> 00:24:39,616 Desmond Glazebrook. 475 00:24:44,027 --> 00:24:45,904 He's not a bad chap, really. 476 00:24:46,707 --> 00:24:48,823 He's always attacking the government. 477 00:24:48,987 --> 00:24:53,060 It does us good sometimes to appoint ouropponents. 478 00:24:53,227 --> 00:24:55,218 It's democratic, statesmanlike. 479 00:24:55,387 --> 00:24:57,901 Yes, that's a very good appointment. 480 00:24:58,067 --> 00:25:00,183 - But you can't. - Do shut up, Frank! 481 00:25:00,627 --> 00:25:02,265 Anybody else know about this? 482 00:25:02,427 --> 00:25:05,976 Apart from ourselves and the bank and Michael Bradley, 483 00:25:06,147 --> 00:25:08,103 the Union representative. 484 00:25:08,267 --> 00:25:09,825 Joe Morgan! Of course. 485 00:25:10,107 --> 00:25:13,816 That's whatwas behind his special Birmingham allowance claim. 486 00:25:14,147 --> 00:25:16,263 - Blackmail. - Quite so, Minister. 487 00:25:16,427 --> 00:25:18,418 Humphrey, I've been thinking. 488 00:25:18,667 --> 00:25:21,784 Desmond Glazebrook will need some support. 489 00:25:21,987 --> 00:25:23,340 A Deputy Chairman, 490 00:25:23,507 --> 00:25:26,226 someone with real experience of Industry. 491 00:25:27,307 --> 00:25:29,263 An excellent thought. 492 00:25:29,547 --> 00:25:33,745 Is there anyone you could advise me would be appropriate? 493 00:25:34,067 --> 00:25:36,740 ATrade Unionist, forexample? 494 00:25:39,147 --> 00:25:41,502 What about Joe Morgan, Minister? 495 00:25:41,667 --> 00:25:43,066 Joe Morgan! 496 00:25:43,987 --> 00:25:46,421 What an excellent idea. Well done. 497 00:25:46,587 --> 00:25:48,862 It takes two to quango, Minister. 498 00:25:50,547 --> 00:25:52,856 Get on to them both immediately. 499 00:25:53,027 --> 00:25:55,905 This is what's wrong with the system! 500 00:25:56,067 --> 00:25:59,184 It's jobs forthe boys, quid pro quo corruption. 501 00:25:59,347 --> 00:26:01,338 What about my quango abolition paper? 502 00:26:01,507 --> 00:26:04,738 Very good, Frank. Original and imaginative. 503 00:26:04,907 --> 00:26:06,135 - Novel. - Novel. 504 00:26:07,147 --> 00:26:09,422 I'm serious about it. What are you going to do? 505 00:26:12,827 --> 00:26:15,546 You're not going to suppress it. 506 00:26:15,707 --> 00:26:18,585 I'll get it adopted as party policy. 507 00:26:18,747 --> 00:26:21,022 If the Press were to get hold of this... 508 00:26:21,187 --> 00:26:24,065 Yes, if the Press were to get hold of this. 509 00:26:24,227 --> 00:26:26,821 - What a story! - Frank, I've been wondering. 510 00:26:26,987 --> 00:26:29,660 Have you everthought of serving on a quango? 511 00:26:29,827 --> 00:26:31,624 You're not corrupting me. 512 00:26:31,787 --> 00:26:33,539 No, no, of course not. 513 00:26:33,707 --> 00:26:35,857 But perhaps betterthan abolishing 514 00:26:36,027 --> 00:26:38,985 the entire system would be to make itwork. 515 00:26:39,467 --> 00:26:42,106 Humphrey and I were thinking, if we were to set up 516 00:26:42,267 --> 00:26:44,781 a special commission to investigate and report 517 00:26:44,947 --> 00:26:48,064 on the composition and activities of all quangos, 518 00:26:48,227 --> 00:26:49,979 that might be the answer. 519 00:26:50,147 --> 00:26:51,182 The answer! 520 00:26:51,347 --> 00:26:54,783 Itwould have to be very senior, mostly Privy Councillors. 521 00:26:55,787 --> 00:26:58,426 But itwould need too some very able people 522 00:26:58,587 --> 00:27:00,259 who have studied quangos 523 00:27:00,427 --> 00:27:02,657 and knew the abuses of the system. 524 00:27:02,907 --> 00:27:06,024 And in the light of yourknowledge and concern, 525 00:27:06,187 --> 00:27:08,826 Humphrey suggested yourname. 526 00:27:10,547 --> 00:27:13,266 - Didn't you, Humphrey? - Mr. Weisel, I said. 527 00:27:13,787 --> 00:27:15,937 You're not going to change my opinions. 528 00:27:16,107 --> 00:27:18,940 - There is such a thing as integrity. - Of course. 529 00:27:19,107 --> 00:27:21,621 Youropinions and your integrity would make you 530 00:27:21,787 --> 00:27:23,857 such a valuable member of this quango. 531 00:27:24,027 --> 00:27:26,461 Mind you, itwould be very hard work. 532 00:27:27,187 --> 00:27:29,985 Service to this SuperQuango would involve you 533 00:27:30,147 --> 00:27:33,298 in some very arduous foreign travel, 534 00:27:34,787 --> 00:27:37,176 to see how these matters are managed 535 00:27:37,347 --> 00:27:39,542 in other important government centres. 536 00:27:40,147 --> 00:27:41,899 Japan, Australia, 537 00:27:42,227 --> 00:27:43,785 California, 538 00:27:44,347 --> 00:27:45,826 the West Indies... 539 00:27:46,467 --> 00:27:48,583 - Tahiti... - Tahiti. 540 00:27:50,947 --> 00:27:53,586 Yes, thatwould be fairly arduous. 541 00:27:53,747 --> 00:27:56,341 Dreadful. Dreadful. 542 00:27:56,947 --> 00:27:59,620 But serving the public's what it's all about, isn't it? 543 00:27:59,787 --> 00:28:01,425 - Absolutely... - Serving the public. 544 00:28:01,587 --> 00:28:03,100 Serving the public. 545 00:28:04,347 --> 00:28:06,019 And my quango paper? 546 00:28:06,187 --> 00:28:08,747 Invaluable, take itwith you. 547 00:28:10,667 --> 00:28:15,218 I'll keep a copy, if I may, on the files. 548 00:28:15,747 --> 00:28:17,624 With the Solihull Report. 549 00:28:18,387 --> 00:28:19,786 Yes, Minister.