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The main news this Thursday pm
is the big government re-shuffle.

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I have with me, to discuss his new empire,

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the Minister for Administrative Affairs,
the Right Honourable James Hacker.

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It's been said that you are now
Mr Town Hall as well as Mr Whitehall.

5
00:00:59,107 --> 00:01:02,418
Well, it's very flattering of you to put it that way.

6
00:01:02,588 --> 00:01:06,581
It wasn't me who put it that way,
it was the Daily Mirror.

7
00:01:07,587 --> 00:01:11,900
I just wanted to confirm that you are
now this country's chief bureaucrat.

8
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That's nonsense. This government
believes in reducing bureaucracy.

9
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Figures I have here say that
your department's staff has risen by 10%.

10
00:01:21,548 --> 00:01:23,777
- Certainly not.
- What figure do you have?

11
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I believe the figure is much more like 9.97.

12
00:01:28,388 --> 00:01:32,860
Well, it has been suggested
that your department is less interested

13
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in reducing bureaucracy than in increasing it.

14
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Well, yes, but that's because we've had to
take on more staff in order to reduce staff.

15
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- I beg your pardon?
- It's common sense.

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We need more doctors to cure more patients,
more firemen to extinguish more fires.

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How will you extinguish
local government bureaucracy?

18
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It's a challenge I'm looking forward to.

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Would you agree there's even more
bureaucratic waste there than in Whitehall?

20
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- Yes, that's what makes it a challenge.
- How will you meet the challenge?

21
00:02:05,548 --> 00:02:10,667
It's far too early to give detailed proposals.
I've just come here direct from Number 10.

22
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From number 9.97, perhaps!

23
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The broad strategy is to cut ruthlessly at waste
while leaving essential services intact.

24
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That's what your predecessor said.
Did he fail?

25
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Let me finish. Because we must be absolutely
clear and I'm going to be quite frank with you.

26
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The fact is that, at the end of the day,
it is the right, the duty,

27
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of the elected government
in the House of Commons

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to ensure government policy,
the policies on which we were elected

29
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and for which we have a mandate,
the policies for which the people voted,

30
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are the policies which, finally,
when the national cake has been divided up...

31
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And may I remind you we, as a nation,
don't have unlimited wealth?

32
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We can't pay ourselves more than we earn.

33
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...are the policies...

34
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I'm sorry, what was the question again?

35
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I was just asking you whether you would
agree that your predecessor had failed.

36
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Certainly not. On the contrary.

37
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It's just that this job is an enormous...

38
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- Challenge?
- Exactly!

39
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Incidentally, I heard your chap
on the radio yesterday, Humpy.

40
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- Mm?
- Mm.

41
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He sounded as if he wanted to DO things
about your new local government remit.

42
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He kept calling it a challenge.

43
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- Congratulations.
- Very kind.

44
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You may soon be
even more important than Arnold!

45
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- Yes, I expect... Er, no, no, no, no, no.
- I do want to be quite clear about this.

46
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I'd never have given you local government
if I'd thought you'd let Hacker do anything.

47
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- He won't be able to. Nobody else has.
- That's not the point, Humpy.

48
00:04:06,947 --> 00:04:11,338
We've found in the past that all local
government reforms rebound on us.

49
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When anybody finds a way of saving money
or cutting staff in local government,

50
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it works for Whitehall just as well.

51
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Yes, but local government is extravagant,
overstaffed, incompetent, whereas we...

52
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- Exactly so.
- I know my duty, Arnold.

53
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If he needs something to keep him busy,
you know what to do?

54
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Get him to look into civil defence.

55
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- Civil defence? You mean fallout shelters?
- Yes.

56
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Governments long ago decided civil defence
was not a serious issue.

57
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Merely a desperate one!

58
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It's best left to those
whose incompetence can be relied upon.

59
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Local authorities!

60
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But the highest duty of government
is to protect its citizens.

61
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Presumably that's why they leave it
to the borough councils!

62
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Thank you, gentlemen.

63
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Can I have a word about a proposal I worked out
before we were transferred to this department?

64
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- And you are?
- I am... what?

65
00:05:24,667 --> 00:05:28,137
- Yes, you are what?
- What?

66
00:05:29,706 --> 00:05:33,143
- What?
- I am Dr Cartwright.

67
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If I may put it another way, what are you?

68
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I'm C of E.

69
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The Minister means, what function
do you perform in the department?

70
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- Don't you know?
- Yes, I know, but the Minister wants to know.

71
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I'm a professional economist.
Director of Local Administration Statistics.

72
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You ran the Local Authority Directorate
before we took over.

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00:05:58,947 --> 00:06:02,144
Dear me, no. Sir Gordon Reid
was the Permanent Secretary.

74
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I'm just Under-Secretary rank.
I fear I shall rise no higher.

75
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- Why not?
- Alas, I'm an expert.

76
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- On what?
- On the whole thing.

77
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- It's all in here.
- What's this all about?

78
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Controlling council expenditure.

79
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I'm proposing that all council officials
responsible for a new project

80
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list their criteria for failure
before getting the go-ahead.

81
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- What do you mean?
- It's a basic scientific approach.

82
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You must establish a method of measuring
the success or failure of an experiment.

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When it's completed,
you know if it's succeeded or failed.

84
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A proposer states "This scheme
would fail if it lasts longer than this

85
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"or costs more than that,
if it employs more staff than these

86
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"or fails to meet pre-set standards."

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- Fantastic! You could never make it work.
- 'Course you can. It's all in there.

88
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This is my top priority reading.
Why hasn't it been done before?

89
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I can't understand. I put it up several times
and it was always welcomed most warmly.

90
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- But there was always something more urgent on.
- Well, you've come to the right place this time.

91
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Thank you, Minister.

92
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This is marvellous, isn't it, Bernard?

93
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Isn't it, Bernard?

94
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Oh, yes. Well, it's... er...
That is, it's... um... very well presented.

95
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- Humphrey will be fascinated.
- He's on his way here.

96
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- He'll give his views.
- What are you saying?

97
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Yes, well, as I say, I think that he'll think
that it's beautifully... typed.

98
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- Ah, Minister.
- Ah, Humphrey, come in.

99
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- Sit down.
- Thank you, Minister.

100
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Now, local authorities. What are we going to do?

101
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Minister, this new remit gives you
more influence, more Cabinet seniority.

102
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But do not let it give you any more work
or worry. That would be foolishness.

103
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We've got to stop this appalling waste
and extravagance.

104
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Why?

105
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- Why?
- Yes, why?

106
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Well, it's my job. We're the government.
We were elected to govern.

107
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Oh, really, Minister.

108
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Surely you won't tamper with the democratic
rights of freely-elected local representatives?

109
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Well... no, of course not.

110
00:08:38,748 --> 00:08:42,742
But local government isn't democratic.
Local democracy's a farce!

111
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Most people don't know who their councillor is.
They never vote in a local election.

112
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Those who do regard it as a popularity poll
for the government here.

113
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Local councillors are accountable to nobody.

114
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They're public-spirited citizens
selflessly sacrificing their spare time.

115
00:08:59,868 --> 00:09:02,701
- Ever met any?
- When there was no alternative.

116
00:09:03,949 --> 00:09:09,341
They're either busybodies on an ego trip
or in it for what they can get out of it.

117
00:09:09,507 --> 00:09:12,944
Perhaps they ought to be
in the House of Commons.

118
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Er, I mean, to see how
a proper legislative assembly behaves.

119
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- I'm going to get a grip on them. I have a plan.
- You have a plan?

120
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Yes.

121
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I'm going to insist that any local official
who puts up a plan costing more than...

122
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...say... £10,000 must accompany it
with failure standards.

123
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- With what?!
- With a statement saying he will have failed

124
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if his project does not achieve
certain... pre-set results...

125
00:09:45,748 --> 00:09:50,902
...or exceeds... fixed time or staff or budget limits.

126
00:09:51,068 --> 00:09:55,266
Where did you get the idea
for this dangerous nonsense?

127
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From someone... in the department.

128
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I have warned you before about the danger
of speaking to people in the department!

129
00:10:03,708 --> 00:10:08,987
I implore you to stay out of the minefield of
local government. It is a political graveyard.

130
00:10:09,147 --> 00:10:14,141
Excuse me, Sir Humphrey,
you cannot have a graveyard in a minefield

131
00:10:14,309 --> 00:10:17,105
because all the corpses would... powww!

132
00:10:20,309 --> 00:10:25,098
- You got me this job, you said.
- But I didn't expect you to do anything.

133
00:10:25,268 --> 00:10:28,464
I mean, you've never done anything before!

134
00:10:28,627 --> 00:10:32,098
- Humphrey, I am deaf to your complaints.
- Please, I beg you...

135
00:10:32,268 --> 00:10:36,705
No, no, no, no, Humphrey.
I want specific proposals straight away.

136
00:10:36,868 --> 00:10:42,818
And immediate plans for their implementation
by local government. What's the fuss about?

137
00:10:42,987 --> 00:10:47,459
I'm only proposing failure standards
for local government, not Whitehall.

138
00:10:47,627 --> 00:10:52,622
- Though come to think of it...
- If you insist on interfering in local government,

139
00:10:52,788 --> 00:10:56,497
may I make a suggestion
that could prove a vote winner?

140
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Humphrey, I want to hear no more about...

141
00:11:02,667 --> 00:11:04,259
Vote winner?

142
00:11:04,429 --> 00:11:07,420
An area of local government
that needs urgent attention.

143
00:11:07,588 --> 00:11:09,578
- What?
- Civil defence.

144
00:11:11,908 --> 00:11:15,502
You mean fallout shelters?
Surely they're just a joke.

145
00:11:15,667 --> 00:11:18,864
Precisely, Minister.
At the moment, they are a joke.

146
00:11:19,027 --> 00:11:23,420
Local authorities are dragging their feet,
but the highest duty of any government

147
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is to protect its citizens.

148
00:11:25,949 --> 00:11:29,417
Some think building shelters
makes nuclear war more likely.

149
00:11:29,588 --> 00:11:32,580
If you have the weapons, you need the shelters.

150
00:11:32,748 --> 00:11:38,219
- Sometimes wonder why we need the weapons.
- Minister, you're not a unilateralist?

151
00:11:38,388 --> 00:11:44,338
- Well... I sometimes wonder.
- Then you must resign from the government!

152
00:11:44,507 --> 00:11:49,821
Ah, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I'm not THAT unilateralist.

153
00:11:49,987 --> 00:11:54,824
- America will protect us from the Russians.
- Who's talking about the Russians?

154
00:11:54,987 --> 00:11:59,027
- Well, the independent deterrent.
- It's to protect us against the French!

155
00:12:01,748 --> 00:12:03,545
The French?

156
00:12:04,547 --> 00:12:07,460
- But that's astounding!
- Why?

157
00:12:07,627 --> 00:12:11,018
- Well, they're our allies, our partners.
- They are NOW.

158
00:12:11,187 --> 00:12:15,022
But they've been our enemies
for most of the past 900 years.

159
00:12:15,187 --> 00:12:18,578
If they've got the bomb, we must have the bomb!

160
00:12:18,748 --> 00:12:23,663
If it's for the French, of course,
that's different. Makes a lot of sense.

161
00:12:23,828 --> 00:12:27,661
- Yes. Can't trust the Frogs.
- You can say that again!

162
00:12:27,828 --> 00:12:30,819
There is increasing public concern
about the bomb.

163
00:12:30,987 --> 00:12:35,185
If I were to be seen to be doing something
about it... I see what you mean.

164
00:12:37,788 --> 00:12:40,699
Ludovic Kennedy is preparing
a BBC documentary on civil defence

165
00:12:40,868 --> 00:12:43,665
likely to be critical of the current situation.

166
00:12:43,828 --> 00:12:46,580
If you were seen
to be taking decisive measures...

167
00:12:46,748 --> 00:12:48,545
Right, yes.

168
00:12:49,388 --> 00:12:52,618
I always handle Ludo so frightfully well.

169
00:12:54,107 --> 00:12:57,783
- Right, well, where do we start?
- Just a suggestion.

170
00:12:57,949 --> 00:13:03,501
The London Borough of Thames Marsh spends
less on civil defence than any other authority.

171
00:13:03,667 --> 00:13:06,022
Hm. A ministerial visit, do you think?

172
00:13:06,187 --> 00:13:10,977
That's Ben Stanley's borough - the one with
the wispy moustache, who the press all hate.

173
00:13:11,147 --> 00:13:17,304
Good point. Get onto it straight away. Get Bill
to make sure the press knows about this visit.

174
00:13:17,868 --> 00:13:24,261
Tell them I lie awake at night worrying about
the defenceless citizens of Thames Marsh.

175
00:13:26,147 --> 00:13:28,138
Do you, Minister?

176
00:13:29,429 --> 00:13:31,896
Well, I will now.

177
00:13:38,708 --> 00:13:43,304
What makes you think you can come
swanning down here from Whitehall

178
00:13:43,468 --> 00:13:45,857
and tell us how to run our borough?

179
00:13:46,027 --> 00:13:48,018
I'm not swanning down from Whitehall.

180
00:13:48,187 --> 00:13:51,658
I'm asking you why you've done less
than any other borough

181
00:13:51,828 --> 00:13:54,022
to protect the people who elected you?

182
00:13:54,187 --> 00:13:58,420
- Simple. We can't find the money.
- Why don't you try looking for it?

183
00:13:59,227 --> 00:14:03,301
Oh, that's great! Stop school meals,
buy no textbooks?

184
00:14:03,468 --> 00:14:07,506
- Turn OAPs out into the cold?
- I can tell you where to find it.

185
00:14:07,667 --> 00:14:09,862
- You can?
- Yes.

186
00:14:10,027 --> 00:14:12,064
Tell him, Dr Cartwright.

187
00:14:14,429 --> 00:14:20,696
Scrap the plans for the new exhibition centre
with the artificial ski slope and jacuzzi pool.

188
00:14:20,868 --> 00:14:22,859
Close the Feminist Drama Centre,

189
00:14:23,027 --> 00:14:27,783
the council's weekly newspaper and magazine
and the Welfare Rights Research Department.

190
00:14:27,949 --> 00:14:31,497
You can halve
the members' entertainments allowance,

191
00:14:31,667 --> 00:14:36,263
sell the Mayor's second Daimler,
postpone the building of the new town hall,

192
00:14:36,429 --> 00:14:40,819
and cancel the 20 councillors'
tourism fact-finding mission to Jamaica.

193
00:14:43,187 --> 00:14:45,576
And close the Gay Bereavement Centre.

194
00:14:49,949 --> 00:14:55,501
That'll save £21 millions on capital account
and £750,000 a year on revenue account.

195
00:14:55,667 --> 00:14:57,464
Revenue account.

196
00:14:59,068 --> 00:15:01,263
- That's just stupid!
- Why?

197
00:15:01,429 --> 00:15:05,580
Well, it's depriving the disadvantaged
of indispensable services!

198
00:15:05,748 --> 00:15:10,980
- Jacuzzi pools?
- I don't care if we can afford a shelter.

199
00:15:11,147 --> 00:15:15,460
This is a unilateralist borough.
We do not believe in nuclear war.

200
00:15:15,627 --> 00:15:20,098
I don't believe in it either, but the provision
of shelters is government policy.

201
00:15:20,268 --> 00:15:25,388
It is not Thames Marsh policy.
Thames Marsh has no quarrel with the USSR.

202
00:15:25,547 --> 00:15:29,699
It's not just the USSR we're frightened of.
It could be the Fre...

203
00:15:32,627 --> 00:15:36,415
- The who?
- The... frigging Chinese!

204
00:15:40,748 --> 00:15:44,343
If the Russians do invade us,
I suppose they'll say,

205
00:15:44,507 --> 00:15:49,980
"Hold on, we're not at war with Thames Marsh.
Right, comrades, let's annex Chelsea instead."

206
00:15:51,147 --> 00:15:54,857
Excuse me, Minister.
I think you may be interested in...

207
00:15:57,908 --> 00:16:03,379
Mr Stanley, it appears that you would not be
called upon to make the supreme sacrifice.

208
00:16:03,547 --> 00:16:07,905
- What do you mean?
- Is there a shelter under the town hall?

209
00:16:09,507 --> 00:16:11,225
Well, is there?

210
00:16:11,388 --> 00:16:14,107
- We didn't build it!
- You maintain it.

211
00:16:15,468 --> 00:16:19,540
- It's only a small one.
- And there is a place in it for you?

212
00:16:19,708 --> 00:16:25,545
I was persuaded, with deep reluctance,
that my preservation was a necessity

213
00:16:25,708 --> 00:16:29,179
in the interests of the ratepayers
of Thames Marsh.

214
00:16:29,348 --> 00:16:35,138
And what provision have you made for other
essential persons? Doctors, nurses, firemen.

215
00:16:35,309 --> 00:16:39,097
People who might be
almost as important as councillors.

216
00:16:39,268 --> 00:16:41,656
One of them's a chemist!

217
00:16:41,828 --> 00:16:45,786
Great. Nothing like aspirin
for the nuclear holocaust.

218
00:16:47,748 --> 00:16:52,344
Your chap had quite a publicity triumph
down at Thames Marsh, didn't he?

219
00:16:52,507 --> 00:16:56,819
- Oh, yes, tremendous.
- You don't sound appropriately happy for him.

220
00:16:56,987 --> 00:17:00,980
- Trouble is he thinks he's achieved something.
- Splendid.

221
00:17:01,147 --> 00:17:05,618
Life is so much easier when ministers
think they've achieved something.

222
00:17:05,789 --> 00:17:08,381
Stops them fretting. No tantrums.

223
00:17:09,309 --> 00:17:12,028
Now he wants to introduce his next idea.

224
00:17:12,187 --> 00:17:16,977
A minister with two ideas. I can't remember
when we last had one of those.

225
00:17:18,588 --> 00:17:20,578
Oh, it's not his own.

226
00:17:21,588 --> 00:17:26,537
He wants to introduce failure standards
on all council contracts over £10,000

227
00:17:26,707 --> 00:17:29,097
and make a named official responsible.

228
00:17:29,269 --> 00:17:30,859
- Humphrey!
- I know.

229
00:17:31,028 --> 00:17:34,655
Cartwright's idiot scheme!
I thought Gordon had squashed it.

230
00:17:34,828 --> 00:17:41,141
He's come over to us now. Slipped the scheme
to the minister privately, under plain cover!

231
00:17:41,948 --> 00:17:46,737
It'll be us next. Once you specify in advance
what a project's supposed to achieve

232
00:17:46,908 --> 00:17:51,903
and whose responsibility it is to see that it does,
the entire system collapses.

233
00:17:52,068 --> 00:17:55,457
You're into the squalid world
of professional management.

234
00:17:55,627 --> 00:17:58,016
I know. I've tried to explain to him.

235
00:17:58,187 --> 00:18:04,662
I have pointed out that his new responsibilities
were for enjoying, not exercising. I don't know.

236
00:18:04,828 --> 00:18:10,425
We move our officials round every 2 or 3 years
to stop this personal responsibility nonsense.

237
00:18:10,588 --> 00:18:13,977
If this happened,
we'd be posting everybody once a fortnight.

238
00:18:14,147 --> 00:18:18,539
He must be stopped.
What's his next little publicity trip?

239
00:18:18,707 --> 00:18:23,146
Well, tomorrow
he's living his little triumph over again.

240
00:18:23,309 --> 00:18:28,780
He's recording a TV interview with Ludovic
Kennedy. A documentary on civil defence.

241
00:18:29,948 --> 00:18:35,341
Supposing he had a dossier
on the curious ways in which local councillors

242
00:18:35,508 --> 00:18:38,102
spend their civil defence budgets.

243
00:18:38,269 --> 00:18:41,499
- How would that help?
- I've got an idea.

244
00:18:41,667 --> 00:18:44,705
Perhaps you ought to become a minister!

245
00:18:46,948 --> 00:18:49,542
Um... just a joke, Arnold.

246
00:18:51,348 --> 00:18:54,021
Stand by, studio. We're about to record.

247
00:18:54,187 --> 00:18:59,182
A change for a minister to be given a chance
to talk about something that's a success.

248
00:18:59,348 --> 00:19:03,386
Most unusual for the BBC.
Is this a change of policy?

249
00:19:03,548 --> 00:19:05,425
...2... 1.

250
00:19:05,588 --> 00:19:09,787
You've been claiming recently
that in your dealings with local authority,

251
00:19:09,948 --> 00:19:13,098
you've been making progress
as regards civil defence.

252
00:19:13,269 --> 00:19:17,386
Surely this has been more in the field
of publicity than any achievement?

253
00:19:17,548 --> 00:19:19,743
No, no, no, no, Ludo.

254
00:19:19,908 --> 00:19:23,457
Authorities are being made
to face up to these issues

255
00:19:23,627 --> 00:19:26,381
because of the interest we have generated.

256
00:19:26,548 --> 00:19:30,256
You're agreeing. Your success
has been a publicity success.

257
00:19:30,428 --> 00:19:33,182
Well, yes, but things are changing.

258
00:19:33,348 --> 00:19:37,626
- Well, what about Thames Marsh?
- Ah, Thames Marsh. Good example.

259
00:19:37,789 --> 00:19:40,745
As I said in the press, they have one shelter.

260
00:19:40,908 --> 00:19:44,263
A place in it is reserved for Ben Stanley,
council leader,

261
00:19:44,428 --> 00:19:47,100
who refuses to build shelters for others.

262
00:19:47,269 --> 00:19:49,260
Don't you think that's hypocritical?

263
00:19:49,428 --> 00:19:55,617
Surely it's reasonable to expect that one of
our elected representatives should survive.

264
00:19:55,789 --> 00:19:59,497
- Who is to govern otherwise?
- In the event of a nuclear holocaust -

265
00:19:59,667 --> 00:20:03,662
and, of course, we all pray that
such a thing will never happen -

266
00:20:03,828 --> 00:20:08,026
there are perhaps more important people
than mere politicians.

267
00:20:08,187 --> 00:20:13,740
Doctors, nurses, ambulance men, and so on.
All people who run essential services.

268
00:20:13,908 --> 00:20:18,903
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not a fact
that the PM and Home Secretary

269
00:20:19,068 --> 00:20:23,460
have places reserved for them
in government fallout shelters?

270
00:20:23,627 --> 00:20:25,664
That is completely different.

271
00:20:27,388 --> 00:20:29,185
How?

272
00:20:29,348 --> 00:20:33,545
Well, there has to be someone
to... run the... you know.

273
00:20:33,707 --> 00:20:39,100
Minister, you're saying political leaders should
give up their places for doctors and nurses.

274
00:20:39,269 --> 00:20:43,102
Have you put this idea to the PM
and the Home Secretary?

275
00:20:43,269 --> 00:20:48,978
I think we ought to be careful not to trivialise
what is a very serious issue, Ludovic.

276
00:20:50,749 --> 00:20:55,106
I'll give you another example.
I know of a borough which sent councillors,

277
00:20:55,269 --> 00:20:59,057
at the ratepayers' expensive,
to California to look at shelters.

278
00:20:59,227 --> 00:21:01,423
But they couldn't do anything about it

279
00:21:01,588 --> 00:21:07,106
because they'd spent the entire civil defence
budget for three whole years on the trip!

280
00:21:08,028 --> 00:21:10,223
- How shocking.
- Shocking.

281
00:21:12,468 --> 00:21:16,176
Thank you, Minister.
By the way, how did the recording go?

282
00:21:16,348 --> 00:21:20,341
Well, I got into a bit of bother
over Ben Stanley's bunker.

283
00:21:20,508 --> 00:21:24,216
I said politicians weren't as important
as doctors and so on.

284
00:21:24,388 --> 00:21:26,696
Did you?

285
00:21:26,868 --> 00:21:31,260
Then he said "What about the PM's place
in the government shelter?"

286
00:21:31,428 --> 00:21:34,626
- And what did you say?
- I got out of it.

287
00:21:34,789 --> 00:21:36,780
Quite cleverly, actually.

288
00:21:36,948 --> 00:21:40,941
I'm not too sure how happy
the PM will be about it.

289
00:21:41,107 --> 00:21:44,703
Then I recovered with a marvellous story
about some councillors

290
00:21:44,868 --> 00:21:47,463
who went to California to look at shelters

291
00:21:47,627 --> 00:21:52,338
and spent three entire years
of the civil defence budget on the jaunt!

292
00:21:55,309 --> 00:21:59,301
- May I ask where that came from?
- Yes. Where did that come from?

293
00:21:59,468 --> 00:22:04,098
From the Civil Defence Directorate.
They knew you were doing the interview.

294
00:22:05,627 --> 00:22:09,620
Oh, well. Anyway, Minister,
I'm sure you know what you're doing.

295
00:22:10,468 --> 00:22:14,939
Humphrey... you only say that
when I've made an appalling cock-up.

296
00:22:18,187 --> 00:22:22,578
You do know the borough in question
contains the PM's constituency...

297
00:22:24,348 --> 00:22:29,341
...and that the PM's election agent
was the councillor who led the delegation?

298
00:22:34,627 --> 00:22:39,417
- That was just a joke, wasn't it?
- Number 10 have been trying to keep it quiet.

299
00:22:39,588 --> 00:22:42,785
- Oh, well, truth will out.
- No, no, no!

300
00:22:42,948 --> 00:22:48,068
No, no, no, it mustn't out.
It might look like a personal attack.

301
00:22:48,227 --> 00:22:53,097
You know what the PM's like about loyalty.
This interview must not go out.

302
00:22:53,269 --> 00:22:57,261
Well, unfortunately, I haven't the time,
I must be going.

303
00:22:57,428 --> 00:23:02,138
Humphrey, I... I... I... I'm ordering you, Humphrey.

304
00:23:02,309 --> 00:23:06,301
- Alas, your orders are calling me away.
- What do you mean?

305
00:23:06,468 --> 00:23:11,258
Your scheme for imposing failure standards
on local councils is very complex.

306
00:23:11,428 --> 00:23:16,024
You asked for proposals straight away.
It's taking every moment of my time.

307
00:23:16,187 --> 00:23:18,383
Much as I would like to help.

308
00:23:20,348 --> 00:23:25,944
However... if implementing failure standards
were not quite so urgent...

309
00:23:26,107 --> 00:23:28,780
You mean, you can stop this broadcast?

310
00:23:28,948 --> 00:23:32,542
Now, Minister, we cannot censor the BBC,

311
00:23:32,707 --> 00:23:36,542
but I happen to be lunching
with the BBC's Director of Policy.

312
00:23:36,707 --> 00:23:40,588
- Perhaps you'd care to join us.
- But if we can't censor them...

313
00:23:40,749 --> 00:23:44,742
We could persuade them
to withdraw programmes voluntarily

314
00:23:44,908 --> 00:23:48,617
once they realise that transmission
is not in the public interest.

315
00:23:49,508 --> 00:23:55,504
Well, it's not in MY interest... and I represent
the public, so it's not in the public interest.

316
00:23:58,948 --> 00:24:00,939
That's a novel argument.

317
00:24:03,068 --> 00:24:06,582
We haven't tried that on them before.
Have we?

318
00:24:09,147 --> 00:24:11,377
The BBC cannot give in to government pressure.

319
00:24:11,548 --> 00:24:14,347
- Let's leave that on one side...
- No, no!

320
00:24:14,508 --> 00:24:18,819
Let's leave that on one side, shall we?
Please, Minister.

321
00:24:18,987 --> 00:24:21,218
Frank, could I raise something else?

322
00:24:22,107 --> 00:24:27,705
There is considerable disquiet about the BBC's
attitude and hostility towards the government.

323
00:24:28,348 --> 00:24:31,544
- But that's absurd.
- Is it?

324
00:24:31,707 --> 00:24:37,544
They've been documenting instances of bias
in BBC current affairs.

325
00:24:37,707 --> 00:24:40,540
Favourable news stories not reported.

326
00:24:41,548 --> 00:24:46,258
Oh, yes. Excessive publicity
for other countries' cases against Britain.

327
00:24:46,428 --> 00:24:50,182
Especially our Common Market enemies...

328
00:24:50,348 --> 00:24:53,225
...um... partners.

329
00:24:53,388 --> 00:24:55,379
Oh, yes.

330
00:24:55,548 --> 00:24:58,381
Jokes against the Prime Minister.

331
00:24:58,548 --> 00:25:02,256
Unnecessary publicity
for anti-government demonstrations.

332
00:25:02,428 --> 00:25:06,740
And ministers' programme suggestions
not accepted.

333
00:25:08,428 --> 00:25:13,981
- I had no room in my case for the others.
- I'm sure we have answers to all these.

334
00:25:14,147 --> 00:25:17,140
The BBC's always got answers. Silly ones.

335
00:25:17,309 --> 00:25:21,937
Yes, of course. I thought it fair to warn you
that questions are being asked.

336
00:25:22,707 --> 00:25:26,495
- What sort of questions?
- Well, for example,

337
00:25:26,667 --> 00:25:31,662
were Parliament to be televised,
whether it shouldn't be entrusted to ITV.

338
00:25:33,227 --> 00:25:37,618
- You can't be serious?
- And whether the BBC administration

339
00:25:37,789 --> 00:25:42,178
is making the cuts in jobs and premises
that we've endured in government.

340
00:25:42,348 --> 00:25:45,943
Should a select committee scrutinise
BBC expenditure?

341
00:25:46,107 --> 00:25:49,655
- That would be an intolerable intrusion.
- Well, of course.

342
00:25:49,828 --> 00:25:55,425
Then there's this extraordinary matter of boxes
at Ascot, Wimbledon, Lords, Covent Garden.

343
00:25:56,707 --> 00:26:02,100
Ah, yes, those are a technical requirement
for the production and engineering staff.

344
00:26:02,948 --> 00:26:08,419
Reports from the Inland Revenue suggest
that the production and engineering staff

345
00:26:08,588 --> 00:26:10,977
are all holding champagne glasses.

346
00:26:11,987 --> 00:26:15,457
And are all accompanied by their wives or...

347
00:26:15,627 --> 00:26:19,667
...ladies of... equal distinction.

348
00:26:21,987 --> 00:26:24,184
And all bear a remarkable similarity

349
00:26:24,348 --> 00:26:29,742
to governors, directors and executives
of the Corporation, and their friends.

350
00:26:29,908 --> 00:26:32,627
Oh, I say, you've come out very well.

351
00:26:35,348 --> 00:26:41,696
It is possible we can contain all this criticism,
provided the files don't get any larger.

352
00:26:41,868 --> 00:26:47,068
I've urged my minister that there's no need
to take up the civil defence issue formally.

353
00:26:47,227 --> 00:26:49,946
But... But you must see my position.

354
00:26:53,227 --> 00:26:57,618
- The BBC can't give in to government pressure.
- We wouldn't want them to.

355
00:26:57,789 --> 00:27:00,062
- Wouldn't we?
- No, of course not.

356
00:27:00,227 --> 00:27:04,379
The minister's interview with Ludovic Kennedy
did contain factual errors.

357
00:27:04,548 --> 00:27:09,383
Factual errors? That's different. The BBC
couldn't give in to government pressure.

358
00:27:09,548 --> 00:27:14,019
- Absolutely not.
- But we set great store by factual accuracy.

359
00:27:14,187 --> 00:27:18,182
Some of the information might well
be out of date by the time...

360
00:27:18,348 --> 00:27:21,068
Out of date? Ah, now, that's serious.

361
00:27:21,227 --> 00:27:24,185
Obviously, the BBC couldn't give in
to government pressure.

362
00:27:24,348 --> 00:27:28,626
- Oh, indeed not.
- But we can't transmit out-of-date material.

363
00:27:28,789 --> 00:27:33,021
And since the recording,
I realised that I made one or two slips

364
00:27:33,187 --> 00:27:35,905
that might have security implications.

365
00:27:36,068 --> 00:27:39,425
- Such as?
- He can't tell you what they are.

366
00:27:42,227 --> 00:27:44,901
- Why not?
- Security.

367
00:27:45,068 --> 00:27:47,059
Can't be too careful about security.

368
00:27:47,227 --> 00:27:51,015
If the defence of the realm is at stake,
we must be responsible.

369
00:27:51,187 --> 00:27:54,975
Obviously, the BBC couldn't give in
to government pressure,

370
00:27:55,147 --> 00:27:57,537
but security - you can't be too careful.

371
00:27:57,707 --> 00:28:00,097
- Can't be too careful.
- Can't be too careful.

372
00:28:00,269 --> 00:28:05,466
If there are inaccuracies and security worries,
the BBC wouldn't want to put the interview out.

373
00:28:05,627 --> 00:28:10,066
- Precisely.
- That puts a different complexion on it.

374
00:28:10,227 --> 00:28:15,984
Transmission would not be in the public's interest,
but I must make one thing absolutely clear.

375
00:28:16,147 --> 00:28:22,019
There can be absolutely no question of
the BBC ever giving in to government pressure.

376
00:28:23,508 --> 00:28:25,499
Oh, good news, Minister.

377
00:28:26,508 --> 00:28:30,705
The BBC have decided not to send out
your interview with Ludovic Kennedy.

378
00:28:30,868 --> 00:28:33,905
- Really?
- They felt that was the responsible course.

379
00:28:34,068 --> 00:28:36,059
- Well done.
- Oh, it was nothing.

380
00:28:36,227 --> 00:28:39,504
Yet, you know, I can't help feeling

381
00:28:39,667 --> 00:28:44,696
that I was trapped into saying those things
that might've embarrassed the PM.

382
00:28:44,868 --> 00:28:46,859
- Surely not?
- Yes.

383
00:28:47,789 --> 00:28:53,977
- I think I was dropped right in it.
- How could you think such a ridiculous thought?

384
00:28:54,147 --> 00:28:58,461
Why is it ridiculous to imagine that
he would've tried to trap me?

385
00:28:58,627 --> 00:29:00,425
Who?

386
00:29:00,588 --> 00:29:02,578
Ludovic Kennedy.

387
00:29:03,707 --> 00:29:07,702
Oh, Ludovic Kennedy tried to trap you.
Yes, well, I'm sure he did.

388
00:29:07,868 --> 00:29:12,419
- Deceitful crowd, the media. Underhand.
- No, thoroughly deceitful.

389
00:29:12,588 --> 00:29:16,899
By the way, I think it might be wise
to lay off the local councils.

390
00:29:17,068 --> 00:29:18,386
Oh, yes?

391
00:29:18,548 --> 00:29:23,144
After all, councillors are responsible,
sensible people on the whole.

392
00:29:23,309 --> 00:29:26,300
- And they are democratically elected.
- Democratically elected.

393
00:29:26,468 --> 00:29:31,463
Central government must be frightfully careful
before it tells them how to do their jobs.

394
00:29:31,627 --> 00:29:35,702
Frightfully careful. And the failure standards?

395
00:29:35,868 --> 00:29:40,066
Well, I think the same applies... don't you?

396
00:29:40,227 --> 00:29:41,819
Yes, Minister.

397
00:29:44,187 --> 00:29:54,621
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